Got in a plover argument last night
 

Went to a dinner party :cheers: ... all was fine...talking :chatter about all kinds of island, boating and fun things then one women started lecturing us on why we are not doing enough to save the plover. :doh:

you know the rest...

(deleted because of possible retaliation) :hidin:

OK was she driving a Range Rover or one of those Volvo wanna-be SUVs? Just so I know which vehicle to stick the "Piping Plovers Taste Like Chicken" bumper sticker to the next time I'm on the Island.

The "Vineyarders" and Black Dog decals in the back window won't narrow it down nearly enough, tho :(

I'm not a plover supporter but hey, why don't we just open all closed areas to every retard in a 4wd vehicle, put a Hilton on Nomans, and let the draggers slaughter the closed areas?

There's plenty more seashore other than where they close.
And as far as I'm concerned, they SHOULD allow less beach vehicle traffic, most of you could use the exercise. :hihi:

go make a fake plover nest in her front yard and tell her she needs to move off island :hihi:

Mr. Sandman,
Wish I was at that party.. :hihi: :chatter

If there were more humans on the beach the birds would not suffer from being eaten other animals. People like her have there ideas and they are the only one that others should follow. Once they close a beach there is no foot traffic aloud either. I bet you don't see her out there during beach clean ups and planting beach grass for dune restoration.

I am going to go through my papers... it will take me a bit to find, but the CCNS has published a paper that claims that ORV's used properly have no impact on Plovers. Also, last year at Sandy Neck, the rangers opened a closed area to the self-contained.. because the fact that with the campers there, the nests were not disturbed by the predators...... biggest danger to plovers.. Racoons, Skunks, Foxes, Coyotes, and developers. How many miles of coastline to Rhody and CT. have??? and how many pairs of nesting plovers do they average per year? Last year we had 19 pair in the ORV corridor at Nauset (just at one MA 4X4 beach!)... more than twice what the whole friggin coastline of CT and RI combined... she sounds typical of the anti-movement, open mouth, empty head.
When I find that document, I will post the document #, you should be able to contact them and order a copy... might take me a bit.

You should bring her some roasted cornished hens next time you plan to see her....lol

Poke that lady in her eye with your fork next time. My hatred for that bird is only rivaled by Rick Pitino. Coyotes and foxes are all over the beach, but its the 4wd's fault. :hs:

I totally agree that half these retards have never done one good thing other than "donating money" so they can get that cute sticker for their car but I'll tell you what, foxes and coyotes on the cape don't have one bit of fear of humans anymore. They'll happily walk right up to that bucket of bait and steal out of it at 3 in the morning.

While it is kinda cute to see a 3lb Red Fox dragging a big ole herring down the beach, its certainly not safe considering they caught 2 in Norton last week that had rabies. :err:

The dog dosen't go out after dark anymore after hearing about that one.

Bring some cats to the beach.

Reward 'em for every plover they kill - with a nice fresh salmon dinner. :hihi:

jim, next time you go to a dinner party will you ask the host if the woman will be there? :hihi:

In 1996 the feds had most of the Front closed for the Plovers. So we could get to the SEcond Rip but the Race was closed and all but about 100 yards of the Back was closed.
There was A Golden eagle in residence on the Front and he would sit on a Plove sign and one by one he picked off every little Plover that wandered out of the fenced area. Then the Foxes and Cyotes made short work of the remainder. Yeah, like we were running over the baby Plovers!!!

Friggin' tree hugging woosies. I had a "Piping Plover tastes like Chicken" sticker on my buggy on the cooler and a lady ranger actually gave me a lecture about saving the little birdies.:smash: :sled:

Now you guys know why a have a 50 cal. mounted on the back of my Hummer Canal Bike! Oh the humanity!

Coyote/Fox habitat expansion thank you leg-holf trap ban
 

First of all SANDMAN thank you for standing up for all of us.

That same lady probably donated to the PETA organization that helped get leg-hold traps banned, which increased 10 fold the amount of forage food, (like racoon, foxes, groundhogs) that coyotes feed on, including them round little plovers. People like your fellow party-goer always take the easy way out and blame the obvious choice the guy with the 4 x 4 who travels the beach fishing. God forbid she actually looked into the problem more deeply and found out she and her ilk contributed to the problem more than any ever could have. In her shallow world I imagine her gene pool as only being puddle deep. The liberals, at least the lazy liberals, who think they are educated or maybe are educated would rather create a new rule than deal with a problem by using the value system in place. Wait till there is 1.2 billion people living on this continent, as in China, or just in this country and then try to convince that mass of humanity a plover is more important than one persons movement from one place to another. With all the money, time, and energy that these people have thrown at the so-called plover problem what they can't admit is there utter failure in the task at hand. I drive down Deluxebury beach backside road and watch four or five teenage girls getting paid 8 to 10 dollars an hour to watch the plover nest and keep traffic going 5 m.p.h. talking to a like amount of teenage boys not doing their job. For all these kids/people new there were no plovers inside the fence. Species sometimes do not survive, trees do get cut down (sometimes old growth), roads get built, and LIKWID those rubbers trees probably dont survive being drained of all their resources that go into making your wetsuits. I jumped out of my truck one morning at High Pines on the backside of Deluxebury Beach and found two of the mangiest most sickly foxes I have ever seen in my life staring at me. They weighed about 2 lbs a piece. If thats what a plover diet does for the foxes I dont see what the fuss is about anyway. :hihi:

less beach traffic? :huh: we've lost enough already, time to start getting back access. :smash:

good thing didn't say all of you :tm:

beach access being lost is a sore subject, try not to dig the dagger in any further ok :)

I's the same old NIMBY scenario.
They're all for saving the "animal du 'jour", but if you try to restrict their activity, the read you the riot act.
My best analogy is the "harvesting" of deer to manage herds.
The animal rights activist want the hunting to stop, but when the animals begin invading our neighborhoods becasue their food supply is gone, when we see and hear about animal / human cotact with disasterous results, when we see and hear the results of entire herds starving and malnourished, where are the same people to lend their support?
They're nowhere to be found, because they have found some other "cause of the day".
Most "true" hunters and fishermen are concerned about the plights of animals, we just don't turn into a$$holes about them.
As it's been stated before, the wildlife in the surrounding areas is doing more damage than the humans have. We are limited by the seasons, nature isn't.

People should be sore about the amount of striped bass there are out there, not getting to them.

I'd rather see Striped Bass #'s the way they were 40 years ago than beach access the way it was 40 years ago.

But will either happen? Not likely.

Your confusing me likwid.... you've said on another thread that it's OK for the seals to eat the bass, your don't want the bounty back on them, like 40 years ago... close access to people is OK, in your book, so a bird that is no longer endangered, can be wiped out by predators at a more rapid rate........ do you also take Omega3, to support the people draggin all the menhaden out of the food chain for the bass as well?
Bring back the bait, (protect the bunker, herring, etc.), eliminate the seals, the bass population might not just increase, (which it has already a bit), they might actually be more healthy... they are starving for lack of bait, that is the big "bass" problem right now...
Do you fish?

numbers
 

True Likwid, about the numbers, but most of the guys I know throw every fish back trying to increase those numbers. I think its great a younger person suc as yourself is this caring. After all you get closer to mother eart than most of us with the diving you do. Most if not all of us are very concerned here, for selfish reasons, and for the good of all.

I am a little disappointed at not getting the blow by blow this winter from you.

You can have all the striped bass in the world but if you don't have the shore/beach access to catch them your point is mute.


Jim,
Way to stand up for what you believe in: now write a letter to the MV paper telling them what transpired at the "dinner Party". I would have loved to be there sipping a martini and heard you put her in her place.

DZ

My reasoning behind wanting the beaches closed is for better research into how to handle the situation between wildlife, beachgoers and the inevitable wasting away of the cape by erosion.

There needs to be a common ground that can be reached between access and wildlife protection, and NEITHER side wants to give away ANYTHING.

Thats the core issue. The fact alone totally off topic that in MY lifetime we very well could run out of oil has me way down lately about how we're not only managing resources but how we manage the amazing areas that we're allowed access to. Anyone who's walked the Audubon sanctuary down on the cape will attest to just how amazingly beautiful that area is without the encroachment of people or vehicles.

The cape isn't there for us to do wtf ever we please with it. If we do that everyone's kids, and their kids won't have it to enjoy like we have. And that goes for fish, birds, deer, turkeys, worms, eels, sharks, etc.

Environment and Wildlife management as it is, is a total goddamn joke in this country, the people who run it only seem to see in black and white and don't find a common ground for both sides to begrudgingly accept.

Off topic:

I didn't work in the mountains this winter, Spent November in California (skied) then took a boat from Annapolis to the USVI in December and after that beating my back and wrists were too messed up to try to work up north.

Slowly recovering and enjoying the few very nice days we've had so far this year. :D

Just delivered the largest sailboat in Padanaram back to Concordia 2 weeks ago from New England Boat Works too. :hihi:

boats
 

I fish out of Padnaram with a buddy of mine. I am amazed at the nice sailboats that are at anchor in the inner and outer harbor there. I can tell you that in some areas of the cape such as Nauset Light I have seen several hundred feet of lost to nature in the last 35 years. There used to be a small sandwich stand at Nauset that the Whiting family owned. Used to frequent it everyday. My buddies and I used to roam the outer cape and go surfing then at places no one knew of but now are extremely popular places. The bar in Wellfleet on the ocean just up from Newcombs Hollow beach when I was a kid still had dirt on the floor in the head. Now its a wildly popular place. When I was a kid anyone got serve there and I mean everyone. Marconi beach had yet to be born, while Marconi station was there the only beach access was along and old service road along the top of the dunes that was put in place to deliver stuff to the troops in the bunkers that have seen since been removed. We used to surf down the dunes and the n rides waves all day and walk back up the dunes dog tired. I used to travel to North Beach in Chatham before the split. Used to stay in a cabin that disappeared during the bad storm in February, 1978. My opinon is that fxd's do very little damage as compared to mother nature. They do exacerbate what nature does certainly, but it is minor in comparison.

there is one fact i do know about fighting usf&w - their law rules. we may not like it, but they go by the facts presented by their employees' reports. this is especially true on the whole piping plover situation. there are so many states effected by this bird. sure, it is easy to get on the "piping plovers taste like chicken" bandwagon. i know, i used to, but i learned to understand the facts, issues, and future. one thing is that we all need to adapt our fishing around this bird while their nesting season is on us. i know it must be especially hard on the islands and outer cape, but it's a necessary "evil" right now.

the 2003 atlantic plover population count was 1676. the numbers were increasing throught that late 90s and into the new century, but were down from 2002 count of 1690. i did not see the 2004 population report yet. these birds need a couple of things to happen before they are removed from the endanged species act (they are listed as threatened in most states): 1.) the population must hit 2000 breeding pairs; 2.) the population must have a breeding surplus (the fledged chicks must prove signs of sustaining and increasing the population) each year for a period of 5 consecutive years, i believe. now, does this mean we have 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years to go before they reach these numbers, i don't know. I do know that i am watching the numbers, working w/ f&w to build a repor with them to show we are trying to live with these birds. when these birds do reach those milestones and are removed from the endangered species act, the local states enforcement will control beach access, birds protection, etc. i would then turn my fight to try and gain the lost beach access areas taken when this bird first became listed at endanagered. i would also work to try and have a controlled time that when the birds are there, access can be limited.

one thing you must remember is who is fighting for the birds well being - green peace, audubon, etc., all "respected" and prosperous organizations. they pay a lot of money to research for this bird and other issues. they do their homework. meanwhile, fisherman are considered a threat. prove them wrong. do your homework, know the facts, and be prepared to argue your points when someone challenges your views.

No doc # on that seashore report, it is titled the 1999 ORV impact study... plover's , enviro, all covered they can't pin anything on ORV.... interestly enough biggest problem in plover nests that year... washovers.... Darwin award winners, them plovers... biggest cause of erosion as well .. no chit.
Interesting read, and I do remember that MA Audobon was a little peesed at the time this study was released to the public...

Greenpeace?!They're almost as fanatical as PETA!

Resepected.Hardly.

Prosperous.Ya because the same Hollywood types who donate millions to PETA do the same for Greenpeace.

Greenpeace and Audubon.Night and day.

Greenpeace and Audubon.Night and day.[/QUOTE]

Audubon isn't much different than the rest IMO. I read that Mass. Audubon is the only one that does'nt allow hunting on its properties while other states do. Mass. Audubon was also a huge supporter of the anti-trapping laws and bear hunting law changes passed several years ago. Tree huggers is all they are.

Seawolf gives some good advice and I know Karl is involved with the MBBA. Calling people a bunch of crazy treehuggers, enviro wackos or whatever suits your fancy gets you nowhere. The fact is that when an animal is on the endangered species list, a host of federal laws come into effect to protect it.

If you don't deal with these people that you view as the enemy on a rational level you will be doing more harm than good and give them more justifiable reason in their minds to restrict access. Let's face it, they view most fisherman as a bunch of trash throwing social misfits. The smart thing to do is to support those who take up the cause to be actively engaged like the fishing clubs and buggy associations. Let the people who chose to become knowledgeable on the issues discuss the concerns, and never ever mess with a nesting area.

Like it or not, the state Audobon societies are funded by wealthy and politically connected members in our communities, I recently saw the annual financial report from the RI Audobon Society that they send out to their members and they have assets as I recall in the order of $25 million. I would expect Massachusetts Audobon is many times as big as that. We have to stick up for our rights but we have to work with them.

Ed

Whats wrong with supporting something they beleive in?
As far as I'm concerned its a heartless and pathetic method of "hunting" (trapping) Any idiot can put a bear trap out with some bait and come back the next day and have something.

And whats wrong with no hunting on THEIR property? Its no different than a landowner telling you not to hunt on his land.

Mass Audubon and the such would rather protect wildlife at all cost than manage it in a scientifically proven way. I've seen deer on those properties and wouldn't hunt them even if I was given the chance. Wildlife that is not managed properly can and does become a disaster very quickly, just look at the beaver, skunk, coyote and fox population explosion in Mass. It's a freakin nightmare! The Audubon society is far removed from what John James Audubon had invisioned. He was a woodsman, hunter and artist(who also killed the birds he drew). Just before the anti-trapping laws were initiated, I was a member of Ma. Audubon as well as a member of the Appalachian Mountain Club that both pushed the issue ahead. I asked that my opinions be printed in their op-ed sections of their publications, for I thought these measures would be both unsafe and unwise. I was immediatelty denied and I revoked my memberships with both organizations. You may not all agree with trapping but some folks still trap for supplementing their incomes as well as feeding their families, Its a long time honored tradition. IMO it's just a start for these folks to eventually force no hunting laws across the country and yes, fishing is also a target for them. They may not be as extreme or radical as PETA but they're not far behind. Have you noticed how these groups are joining together to get a bigger "bang" for their buck? If anyone of us honestly think that groups such as these are here to manage animal populations, you are gravely mistaken. :doh:

So go to them with solid PROOF and FACTS. Not just "have you seen the number of woodchucks eating my garden?! OMG!".

Prove what you say and they'll change things.

I love this plover thread.

I hope they will be off the indanger list soon, I thought they would be off by now.

I remember a few years ago,they closed a beach on Nantucket for the season because of one plover only to have another bird eat it :)

I also have seen them build a pen for them on state beach(MV) with cars 10 feet away doing 35 ! crazy

And how many did the Gov kill on Monomoy ?????? remember the old seagull's falling from the sky ? lol

Glad to be in America

VB

thanks, ed b.

basswipe, i put the word respected in quotes for that exact reason - our view may not be as respected, but to others, they are respected organizations. it's not just the "hollywood types" that donate. there are hundreds, if not thousands of people in politics, business, or just plain rich that support these organizations and their views. you may never even hear from some of these people as they just give a donation. and, they may not donate $20 or $100 to these organizations, they may donate millions at one time. my point being, they have financial funding - big time. so, research is easily done and paid for while smaller organizations have to do all they can just to scratch for money to "fight for our cause". is that fair? no, but that's the way it seems to work.

now, i'm not saying greenpeace or audubon are equal in their beliefs, but they both have large followings and receive much in donations. that's why i grouped them, as both will favor the plover in this type of debate.

and, just to break off the plover for a minute, do you think that's the only bird or wild animal these organizations could "protect" on our beaches? there are other birds listed on the endangered species list and the same rules could be moved to them next. it is our job as public citizens to understand the laws (both state and federal) when it comes to our rights and the rights of these protected species. to sit back and complain about it on a msg forum helps no one. be one that can respond factually if confronted by someone who sees the view from the other side of the river and not go by what you "hear", which may not have any foundation. even tho' it was edited and removed by sandman, he had some facts to back his position. how many of us here can do the same instead of just shouting the "taste like chicken" stance?

I'm not a biologist of any sorts but we have them at Mass. Dept. of wildlife and fisheries and they gripe about these folks to no ends. Ever talk to one yourself? In a democratic society we should listen to opposing views, weather we agree with them or not. When these groups won't even have the guts to listen to the other side, that spells trouble to me. Solid proof? I guess you don't read the news much. Seen coyote attacks lately? Almost a weekly occurance. No beaver problem? Talk to the countless property owners who have been flooded out causing thousands of $$$$ and to hear the state say there's nothing they can do about it, its the law! Ever hear of rabies? Have you noticed the mutitudes of dead skunks on the roads lately? There's your proof. Seen starving deer lately? Come to my neighborhood, I'll show you some, its pretty pathetic. Woodchucks by the way make great hats and mittens when I catch them on my farm. :behead:

So write a letter to the state.
Get a campaign going, don't just say "WELL I TALKED TO THEM AND THIS IS WHAT THEY SAID". That's not action.

And as far as coyotes attacking and starving deer, blame that on the amount of development in MA, not overpopulation.

Look at the number of goddamn condos and cookie cutter houses they're putting up everywhere that don't need to be there, I for one enjoy living on a somewhat quiet road in the woods of SE Mass.

Historically we had wolves here, if they ever show up again are you gonna complain that they ate your cat?

VB... Plovers are no longer on the endangered list, they have been upgraded to the Threatened list for the last couple of years. No matter where they set the numbers of breading pairs, once that figure is met, the orginazations paying for the studies, manage to get the numbers increased. The state announced earlier this year they will no longer fund protecting Plovers for this reason... MA Audobon, (which is not affiliated,or sanctioned with National Audobon, or any other Audobon group), said they would fund the money instead. It is not, nor has it ever been about the birds, I have been told this angrily to my face in a parking lot, outside of a public hearing, that did not quite go the way the anti- groups wanted. The next tool in the arsenal, to get access closed to vehicles and foot traffic will be the wrack line. The 1999 report I mentioned has the first mentioned studies of the wrack line, and impact studies. My prediction is that this issue, will come more to the fore, as the Plovers continue on their comeback.
I do not hate Plovers, or any other species... I have set more than my share of exclosures, set many a fence line, and even helped erect closed area fence, as well as "symbolic" fence. I just do not "get" why some of these people who clame to love life so much, put people and their rights last. Especially when they cannot support all of their arguements.
I do agree that Man has created more than his share of problems, but the last time I checked we were at the top of the food chain, it is up to us then, to maintain, and control what goes on out there.

Enuf , this dead horse been beat too much. :D

- By George Brennan

Plovers close Eastham beach to pets
Due to the return of piping plovers,
A piping plover roams the edge of the dunes at West Dennis beach yesterday. Last year six piping plover pairs closed part of the West Dennis beach due to nesting.
(Staff photo by Kevin Mingora)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

no pets will be permitted on Coast Guard Beach, south of the former Coast Guard station until further notice, Cape Cod National Seashore officials announced.

Piping plovers are listed as an endangered species by state and federal regulations. Dogs might disturb them while they are nesting.

Seashore officials reminded dog owners to keep their dogs leashed in areas where they are permitted and to pick up after them.

Federal law requires dogs to be on a leash no longer than 6 feet at all times within the Seashore.

It's the first closing this year due to the arrival and nesting of the piping plovers. Last year, nesting plovers forced the closure of more than 300 spaces at West Dennis Beach, starting May 31, and half of the oversand vehicle corridor from Race Point Light to Long Nook Beach in Truro in the Cape Cod National Seashore.

Also closed was most of Nauset Spit in Orleans and a section of the south end of Nauset Beach in Chatham.


Hi Karl, what's for supper :) todays paper

VB

Hi VB...
Never believe everything ya read in the paper... was that CCTimes? If not let me know, I'll be right up their... er, I'll advise them accordingly ;)
Several Groups still refer to them that way... but go do a google.... ya get the straight dope from the Feds.

Also for the record.. Hi Ed... I am a member of MBBA, no longer serve on the Board of Directors, still an acive member, participate at cleanups and volunteer, I still attend the hearings I can make... I make no claim to speak for the club,,, just me and my big mouth :D

How do you think my campaign would fare against multi-million dollar organizations? These folks don't listen to biologist, why would they listen to lil ole me? They believe our states biologist work for sportman anyhow. As for starving deer, I'm sorry to report, it is over-population and the lack of will of home/property owners to give access to their land. Everyone loves to watch bambi feeding in the backyard but when bambi begins to eat ornamental plants and begins to be a problem on the roads causing accidents, then the people complain. Deer are urbanized and thrive quite well if maintained correctly. You can have 3 deer per/acre and they will live comfortably, add 1 more to the heard and they will all begin to starve, not just that added one. I agree goddamn condo's and cookie cutter houses are a problem, but thats urban sprawl and population growth. We can't all live in the city or a quiet road in paradise. As for wolves eating my cat, I can live with that. That what wolves do. But when wolve's, coyotes and mountain lions begin to drag your children into the woods, call Ma. Audubon and complain.