Here it comes........
 

Hold onto your hats boys and girls, the Mid-east is about to blow! Iraqi civil war will make the Khmer Rouge guys look like amateurs. The Iran gets into the fray, we are there left holding our jockstraps because everyone except Britain will bail. Syria starts dumping arms and men into it and boom! Thank you President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Sec. Rumsfeld, the world is about to ignite because of your piss poor leadership. Somebody please, can we get these turkeys out of office now? The Gold Star Mothers membership is going to skyrocket now. If you have a son, daughter, father, mother, brother, sister, cousins or friends in the Military start praying real hard that the inevitable somehow is miraculously avoided.:(

What happened? I missed it!!
Even if the GOP is in power it will be the status quo. We ain't going to be able to get out of this one. They will bring it to us soon!!

If they bring back the draft I am pretty sure the Bush girls are of age!:rtfm: That is if the draft applies to women?

I saw this one coming quite awhile ago...all the way back to when Bush Sr. did not finish the job!:mad:

They dont draft chicks

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

They don't currently draft men either but that too could change. (Besides...it was a joke):jester:

Yeah its all Bush's fault. The muslims have nothing to do with all the violance in the world. Its all Bush. :rollem:

Spence, that was perfectly put. Let's hope real hard.

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?:mad:

Like BF said they don't draft men either.

When the Draft was last used Women were not allowed in Combat. They are Now....so that WILL change....If there is a draft they will be part of it.

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

How many American Service Men were in Iraq before he was President? How many Now?

He's the Head Cheese and Commander in Chief of the Military....Yeah it is his fault....at least some of it

If everything went Stellar over there you'd bet He'd be grabbing all the Praise and Glory.


Geesh... Even Spiderman knows "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

How is this for "pre 9/11 mentality, or should I say mental illness:

President Bush on Thursday defended his administration's decision to allow a company from an Arab country to operate six major U.S. ports, saying, "People don't need to worry about security."

"This deal wouldn't go forward if we were concerned about the security of the United States of America," Bush told reporters during a Cabinet meeting.

So what would you do to stop terroism and keep radical muslims from attacking the US? Obviosly the pre 9/11 liberal policies failed us. What is your solution to the problem?

Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary :rtfm: :zup:

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.

We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

Yeah its all OUR fault. The muslims would be good solid folks if it wasnt for us damn Amercians.:hs: You still didnt mention what your plan for destroying and taking down terroists and terroists states are?

Nastrodamus was right

Skip, it aint worth it.

I think thats an unfair comparison, although I agree with your point.
Germany suffered Humuliation in WW1, and were starving literally for anyone that could take charge and lead their country. Hitler was in the right place at the right time, and seized the opportunity.Once in power ,it was impossible for the PEOPLE to remove him. The rest is history. This is the whole point. Once a dictator is in a position of such IMMENSE power, he cant be VOTED out. You have to physically remove him.
Germans are a civilized people, WW2 is in the past & they have been more than contrite IMO, much like slavery is in the past for us here in the good ol USA. Their History is more than you & I could read about in a lifetime, comparing the people of Germany(at any time in history) to these animals in the middle east ? Please, I would not even dignify that with a response.
WE(US, EUROPE et al) ARE more civilized,so why cant we just come out and FREAKING say it. If WE dont find a resolution, WHO WILL ??
Can someone answer that one question for me and I will shut up.

Is anyone still wondering why Bush 41---who's forgotten more about world affairs than his son ever learned---left Saddam in power after liberating Kuwait? For all of the bad advice W got, the best advice he could have received was from his Dad, and he didn't listen to it :(

When you have a country made up of ethnicities/cultures who historically hate each others' guts, only a brutal dictator can hold it together--look what happened in the Balkans after Tito died.

That being said--a reckoning with Iran has been brewing since 1979. Now that we've removed the natural counterweight to their influence in the region, it's inevitable that our military will have to pay that price. The day we leave Iraq, is the day the Revolutionary Guards march south, and it plays out just like Tom Clancy depicted it in one of his books--a "United Islamic Republic" and the whole region goes kablooey.

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.

I know...I don't know why i even bother.

Skip, point counterpoint makes debate a good thing. I don't agree with just about 80% of what your saying but I agree that you can say it and shouldn't be bashed for it. Keep your opinions sacred and stick with them please and don't give up defending your views.:uhuh:

Well, no actually. Congress didn't vote to go to war, they voted to allow the President to use force to protect the country if necessary and if the Admin could prove that Saddam had WMD and links to al Qaida.

It's pretty clear today they were led just like the rest of us. Did they ask the difficult questions and provide the proper oversight? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they were complicit.

-spence

adding to what spense said...
 

concerning the mosque.....see that particular building being as old as it was...(and our government realizes the signifigance of it but many do not) it was the fabled place that mohamed ...their version of jesus was supposed to return to....and ironically the other shrine where jesus is foretold to return is nearby.... i believe
...i saw a whole program on these ideology's on the history channel.. and bigfish and whoever else...
Bush has already lost control regardless if anythings his fault or not.
the destruction of the mosque was a particularly huge milestone!
this EVENT has totally changed the landscape of religious power.

what i'm wondering is: what our position is (militarilly) when the Civil war just explodes because we cannot take sides in a secular war....

we're only there to fight the terrorist's...the jhadists...insurgents.

and i'm in agreement of a pull back....not a shove in.....with a draft.

Flaptail : whats your idea concerning the Civil war scenario?

I will always speek my mind and dont care what people think of my views. Even when poeple like Nebe attempt to align me and Rebublicans with Nazi's and make personal attacks about my mother. Its just tough talking politics on a New England fishing website where 90% of the people are probably Liberal Democrats. But whatever, i'll take you guys on like i always do. Maybe knock some sense into some of you :devil:

And why are so many on the left who are opposed to the war in Iraq and want our military outta there so in favor of a draft? If you have a draft that means you'd want more troops in the fight. So they want more troops on the ground but want to pull out of Iraq? If you want to pull out why do you want more troops? That logic makes no sense:huh:

Who said they were in favor of a draft? I don't see that in this thread

Skip; not even close...
As a "lefty" I dont support the war in Iraq, I havent from the begining. However, wanting the draft is different that wanting more troops on the ground....
I was pretty close to draft age when we invaded iraq, I'm a bit outside the range now, however, the people that support the draft (I personally dont) want a more class-free selection of who is fighting and dying for the war.

90% :confused:

I'd wager less than 10% of the users on this site are genuine "liberal democrats"...

-spence

Because it's not true. Sen. Rangle proposed this as a PR stunt a few years ago and the GOP pundits you blindly follow have used it to whitewash the Democratic party and scare people.

To be fair, there have been many on the left who have used it to scare people as well :)

But the notion that the left is calling for a draft is simply not true.

Bryan, what you say above is accurate...although when you include the Guard and Reserves it's probably more balanced than it is sometimes presented as...

Though due to recruiting problems, they are lowering standards to include more w/o a high school diploma...and certainly they don't put up as many billboards in affluent areas!

-specne

We're seeing the beginning of a civil war in Islam. It was bound to happen, our meddling just sped it up. Two of the words that I used aren't a precise as I would like "meddling" and "civil", but you get what I mean. Sadaamit held all the little factions apart, or killed one side or the other. Kept their heads down, so to speak. We come along without a clue to their culture and they go after one another like they have to catch up. It's gonna get bad and it's gonna spread.

So in a nutshell...like I said....we should and should have left well enough alone!:doh:

Skippy, if you get fat and your girlfriend tells you are fat...are you going to deny it, or reflect on the things that made you fat and alter your behavior so you don't get more fat?

Doesn't mean you can't have some ice cream, but the pizza and 6 pack dinners have got to go.

I remember reading in the late 1990's how radical Islam was actually on the decline around the world. The main sources of violence in Palestine and Chechnya had more to do with politics than religion.

To destroy terrorists we need to.

A - Lead by example - to spread democracy we need to abide by the rule of law ourselves, respect the dignity of human life and operate transparently and honestly as much as possible...to both the world and the American people.

B - Strive toward energy independence and a balanced budget to limit the influence of nations like Saudia Arabia and others.

C - Develop global coalitions to strengthen a unified position. China and Russia currently have more to gain from Iran's current leadership than if we initiated reform through military force.

D - When we do get a line on real terrorists, let the bullets fly.

The simple fact is that mass bombing and actions that seem to randomly dehumanize will create a net gain in the terrorist population. We need to extinguish the fire by cutting off the oxygen instead of fanning the flames...

Given the wheels that are in motion right now, Mike P may just be right...hold on.

-spence

We just kicked this turd open, shoulda left Iraq the hell alone until they actually did us harm. Now the stink is overwhelming us. We shoulda kept our focus in Afghanistan. They did do us harm. The real pity is the cheapness of life in this whole mess.

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.

I didn't catagorize anybody, but if the shoe fits...

-spence

I don't think Spence is labelling all conservatives or Republicans as neocons. Neocon is different animal: Cheney family, Kristol family, Paul Wolfowitz, Norman Podhoretz, Elliot Abrams, Robert Kagan, Richard Perle, Doug Feith- the foreign policy makers in the Bush admin.

from: http://alternet.org/story/15481/"Contrary to appearances, the neoconservatives do not represent a political movement, but a small, exclusive club with incestuous familial and personal connections. Neoconservatives are former liberals (which explains the "neo" prefix) who advocate an aggressive unilateralist vision of U.S. global supremacy, which includes a close strategic alliance with Israel. "