Upsetting encounter with the charter boat KAYMAN TOO
 

Encounter with KAYMAN TOO on March 13,2006 on Stellwagen Bank.

Went cod fishing with Armand Tetreault and Bruce Weinstein on Monday, March 13 th on the Rhode Island Popper. We are active members of the Rhode Island Saltwater Angler’s Association. We arrived at Stellwagen at around 8:30 a.m. and found the fishing to be slow. We searched the bank for fish and caught a fish here and there. Earlier we had seen a charter boat head on by us heading S/SE. A couple of hours later we were searching for fish and came upon the same charter boat on a drift. We made a wide circle around him so as to not impede his drift and marked fish about 50 yards from him. We set up a drift and caught a few undersized cod. I then noticed that the charter boat that had been 50 yards from us was now under power and heading toward us. I really did think too much of it until their boat was about 15 ft from ours. The captain cut power and they then began to fish within 15 to 20 ft of us. Armand asked what their problem was and they accused us of jumping onto their fish. I got out my camera to document how close they actually got to us and to get the name off the bow of the boat (KAYMAN TOO). That is when one of the guys in the back pulled down his pants and mooned us. They then made some rude comments about my (Asian decent) taking pictures of them. Armand told them that I was a US citizen and had served my time in the US military during the Vietnam era. That is when one of the guys (the same one that mooned us) said, “Not with eyes like those. I killed guys with eyes like those in Vietnam”. I was seething, but didn’t say anything so as to not make the situation worse and possibly escalated into something even uglier. Then another guy on the boat took a fish and threw it at us. Their boat actually came within a couple of feet from our bow when the captain put the engine in reverse and backed off. They then back a few boat lengths away from us and we decided that it was time for us to search another part of Stellwagen. As we were pulling off, Armand noticed that the guy in the back (again the one that mooned us) reached down into the boat and pulled out something and aimed it at us like it was a rifle. I don’t know what it was, but it was a very threatening gesture. Armand did file a report with the Coast Guard on the incident.

I would suggest that those of you that get this message truly consider whether or not you really want to book a charter with a captain that allows this kind of behavior on his boat and feel no guilt about trying to intimidate people off of fish. 50 yards is more than enough spacing between boats. We actually had the American Classic out of Lynn pull up to us at about the same distance and start fishing.

Trust me.
Jim Walsh of the American Classic (Walsh's deep sea fishing )
will do the same thing and even try to run you over with his 100 boat if you get too close to him , especially if his boat is having a slow day !!!:hihi:

oh i get it- they own the water 'cause they're commercials. eff them!

I'm not going to defend the customers... However keep in mind they might not be allowed back. As for jumping in a charter boats sandwich, you have a pair of large ones, running up to a charter scamming thier location and drifting on it. Jeez the guy is trying to make a living; I would think the least you should have done was waited until he was gone or another day before you jumped in his drift line. Bottom fishing is more secretive than bass fishing. The only thing that aggravates a captain more is having a customer on board with a GPS. Some boat will confiscate them until the end of the trip. Afterhours, IMHO it's no different than being on the beach and having someone step into your footsteps as you drag a fish to your vehicle. Or for that matter having your plugs cover with Habs on the tackle shop wall.

We actually went well around him in search of fish and we were drifting parallel to him. We were not in his drift. I do agree with you that drifting in front of him is not cool. The guy's boat we were fishing from understands that and would not do such a thing. We all have friends who are commercial fisherman and charter captains.

Lets see now just so I have this straight; first post to the site no info as to who you are where you are from and its a post bad mouthing a boat YOU came apon catching fish and you pull along side and get mad at them for getting mad at you. I do know Kevin from KAYMAN charters and have been out with him a number of times this winter and I can say he is top notch and first class as far as how he takes care of his customers and how He acts on the boat. You on the other hand I do not know but do know YOU came to them not the other way around. I also know who was out on the charter Mon. and am calling him now because if someone mooned you it was him for sure . On some of my trips with Kevin we had started out slow and I saw the same boat fishing say a mile or so from us and asked if he thought they may be on fish and his answer every time was that they may be but that WE will find our OWN fish and NOT bother them. Do the commercials OWN the water for sure not but as a GOOD fellow fisherman do you crowd out a boat that is DRIFTING a school of fish by jumping in his drift? NOT me and not Kevin as he showed me several times this winter. Also he is NOT a commercial but a CHARTER boat making a living . Again all I can say is how I know Kevin and he is top notch. And as far as who was out with him that day he did what he thought was right to you for jumping HIS charter and would do the same agian. So please stop badmouthing a very good Capt. on this and I am sure manny other sites you visited for the first time with this post. That being said how was the fishing:wave:

PS. I am booking a charter with Kevin as I write this so not only did your rant not work but got him more bussines from me.

You just made my point. You went around him in seach of fish. The only reason you stopped was because he was there. Then whether you set up 50yds behind him, in front of him, or on top of... you scammed him. That is the reason you were treated the way you were, I'll guarantee it. You just got a set of numbers that you didn't have to work for; so let it be, and check them out a different day.

Anyone who treats other people that way would never earn my respect. Did he affect his drift-no. Did he "steal" the charter guys fish-no, they aren't his fish..Give me a break, if you really condone that kind of behavior, intimidation and talking to another person and insulting them with racial slurs was the appropriate action, super. :hs:

I did not say it was wright for the customer to do I said HE did what HE thought was right to do. The world is made up of many types of people I for one do not like someone fishing a drift I set up on for hours but others find it ok to do thats them not me. Would I have done what was done? NO on both counts so lets see; if I did not jump in his drift I would not have been mooned or insulted by a fellow fisherman that feals HE was wronged. I my self would have known better that to jump their drift I gusse its all on what side or boat you was in at the time????

PS he said they did affect their drift as it was a short drift and they could not get back on it as the other boat was on top of them. I do not know this as fact as I was not there but again would not do it myself!

Wow Greg, he just signed on and posted on another Striped bass site :rollem, I guess he is pissed.

I hope he had time to read your response, I think I will put this in timeout and let John decide where it needs to be.

There must be better ways to handle this instead of badmouthing the charter guy on the internet. If they are guilty of a hate crime or something, then go to the authorities.

Greg it still does not justify their actions.

The charter could have been more polite about it and tried to teach them some other way not to jump their drift, like by talking to them and asking them to leave, being rude and insulting does not seem like the right way to me. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I can't believe you guys are defending this guys juvenille behavoir! If someone interrupts your drift or gets "too close" I can think of about 500 things I'd do before mooning them, throwing fish or INSULTING SOMEONE'S RACE! C'mon you guys... you should be ashamed ASHAMED! That is POOR very POOR and that guys should be punished for acting like a childish @$$H0/_3.

-Dave

I would never comsider a trip with the KAYMAN after hearing this

i agree with canalman.. :doh:

I believe all of the verbal abuse was done by the customers.

Dave, I read the thread and nobody replying here defended the guys juvenile behavior.

I put this in scuppers for now but it looks like this is going to begin flaming

If this is in fact true, the mooning I can deal with, pretty funny, but defending the guy on the racial slurs, aiming something at them and throwing a fish at them??? Are you kidding me? Hello Coast Guard.
Sounds like a pretty unprofessional bunch, they were probably :gu: too.

Not taking sides but I've had head boats anchor in my chum line a few times over the last few years, so is it acceptable for me to do rude and perhaps dangerous things to teach fishing eticate?

No bashing please but I have seen it happen both ways.

Lets see.....a big open ocean....out on the Bank and you guys sit on top of this charter and start fishing??? Hmmmmmm.....sounds like maybe you guys needed to back off and not crowd him so much! First off.....personally...I don't fish in crowds....cause people suck! I would rather walk away from a blitz filled with idoits and fish in a quiet, all to myself spot and find my own fish. I never, ever set up close to another guy....its just not done by me though I know many do. You guys could not find a nice quiet place of your own out there in the middle of the ocean this time of year?:huh: Sounds like you were piggy-backing.:hs:

As for their behavior.....inexcusible! If the Captain of the ship let his paying customers/buddies act like that he should lose his Captains liscense!

Whatever justification the Captain may or may not have had went out the window with the racial slur. Whether or not it was crew or customers responsible for these actions the Captain owns the overall responsibilty. In my book Kayman Too loses this case.

This kind of incident unfortunately happens almost everyday on and east of the bank.

I've seen it personally.

Some "captains" have too much ego.

You don't want to crowd another boat, however there is enough room for a few boats to fish even the same small hump when drifting.

The charter gang has its "cliques" and until you get known your nobody. Even guys in the same club "charter boat organizations" don't often help each other out when on the water as far as fishing goes. i.e. if a boat is having a slow day and wants to get fish for their hire and calls a "freind, fellow charter" and asks how they are doing.....answer "it's spotty, kind of slow", meanwhile at the dock you hear they had a 700 pound day. humm.

The actions of the charter are most likely alcohol induced but the "captain" could have handled it better.

Even if you did not set up and fish that day and went back to those numbers the next day before the charter got there allot of "captains" would have landed right on top of you. His reasoning will be I've never seen you hear before and these are my numbers. Like I said, too much ego from most.

Things can be handled way better by saying something like " Hey guys I've been working this hump for an hour and my boat drifts quicker than yours so it's gonna get tight" But in the real world you get. "These are my numbers so scr*w"

It can be an intimadating, cut-throat industry.

My reason for posting this was to inform people what happened to me while fishing Stellwagen. Everyone needs to make up their own minds about the situation. Yes I was pissed when it happened. I agree that if he thought we were jumping his fish, there were many other ways to resovle the issue than almost ramming our boat and then verbally abuse me. He was that close. I could have jumped from our boat to his, he was so close.

If the moderator of this board feels that he must turn this thread off because it is getting a bit heated, I do not mind. Everone getting mad and yelling at each other solves nothing.

1st poster
 

Congrats to whoever put up SF to make this post.

The charter captain and business have been already damaged by an unvalidated situation and post.

If I am fishing a mile of open beach and someone comes along and sets up 25 ft from me I don`t like it and I am guessing none of you would either.
The alleged mooning, racial slurs, and other behaviour are unacceptable and most likely came solely from the customers. But who climbed into someones SPOT when the the ocean is big and wide in hopes of catching some cod that they observed being caught.


Controversy sells I guess.... my post was deleted from the other place when it was SF`s 1st post there and now everyone is going tsk tsk.

Agenda accomplished SK

The CLAMMER isn,t touching this one =lets just say I,ve seen it both ways //big time :eyes:

:rollem: Sounds like a typical day on the water. I see it every time I am out. Whether at the ramp or on the water. Guys breaking unwritten laws, other guys acting like idiot's, others using bad judgement or a mistake or just not having a clue. It is true that fishing takes a lot of patience, especially with other fisherman.:doh: P.

So.....Lets see the pics...:lurk:

Nobody put me up to posting this incident. The situation is not unvalidated since we filed a report with the Coast Guard. I am not demeaning charter boat captains. I have friends who are charter boat captains. Most charter boat captains do not allow this type of behavior to occur on their boats. It is the few that cause damage to the charter boat business not the people who report this bad behavior.

Mike---Armand Tetreault (RI Popper) is a member here. I'm sure he can validate what happened. Let's not jump to conclusions. I doubt samurai fisherman would have invoked Armand's name if he was making all of this up.

Yes, I would like to here what Armand says as well.

SF - we're going to watch this thread pretty closely and if it does get out of hand, send it to purgatory.

At this point, if what happened happened and you folks contacted the CG then that is the path it should take. Pending action there (if there even is any) might be the time to bring it out more... I don't know you nor do I have an opinion either way as to the validity of this story, but your first post here in a thread like this and hearing that you have done the same on a few other boards makes me a little leary. Would it be different if you had a few hundred posts and a longer time member? Probably. Would it be different if Armand had posted this? Probably, as we know him a bit and hangs around here on occasion...

If the actions of the captian are at fault the CG might say something. Unfortunatley, if the client on the trip, mooned, threatened, and used racial remarks, that is pretty low on the clients part. Unfortunately, the captains probably don't do a psychological profile on their clients before boarding...

So, in a nutshell, welcome to S-B, but I'd rather see something a little more official than a first post bashing another captain.

There are good charter captains and bad charter captains, I'm pretty sure that all have had lousy clients at one point or another...

Well, so much for the S-B bed and breakfast.......:smokin:

Well Hello S.B. gang. I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner than this. I have a long historty of fishing Stellwagon Bank. I have been doing it with my own boat for the past 5 or 6 years. I have many times taken friends with me who are charter captains themselves (names available upon request). If some of you believe his actions were justified, I recommend getting ajoining rooms with him and his racist friends.

I worked fish for 2 miles from west to east going toward the area where Kayman Too was. On 3 or 4 occasions American Classic would come close to where I was to start fishing. Along with another smaller private boat. I considered that they were trying to F I S H not harass me! So when I made a large (50+ yards) circle up drift of Kayman Too and marked fish on a side Side SIDE drift. I stopped and started fishing. That's when the event occured and draw your own judments of his handling of it. I personally have lost some sleep over seeing how poorly My friend and Camrad-in-Arms was treated. I pray you gentlmen would not behave that way to anyone, no less a veterant.

Sincerely,

Armand

Kayman too too much
 

I am more than a little surprised to hear a charter guy came that close to another boat at Stellwagon. That would obviously eflame the yahoos he had on board even more than they allready were. If whats being said by the SamuraiF is true then it sounds like Kayman was trying to instigate further or greater problems when it seems yelling at Samurai from 40 or 50 feet away would have sufficed.

As far as the mooing, so what, as far as the racist comments, federal civil rights violations.

The mooning......just one a$$ showing his a$$!:eek: :eyes: :bl:

Unreal. Always interesting to see the different cultures and values on the various fishing forums out there.

I agree with Canalman and ReelEcstasy on this one. What a shame.

By the way, I first caught SF's post on the SNESA/RISAA email list where MANY others offered him support and applauded him for keeping his cool.

There someone responded to him that he should post this same information on a few Massachusetts oriented fishing websites.

striped-bass.com was one of them listed. So I don't find it surprising that this was his first post. Honestly, I think he could have been welcomed a little better.

SF, personally I appreciate you posting your first-hand account of the story and for filing a report with the CG. What is the saying? No good deed shall go unpunished.

Thanks Again,
Mike Flaherty

P.S.
Remember folks, it wasn't the customer who drove the boat up 15 feet from Armond.

Mike, John, and SF
 

I knew from the beginning post who Armand was. I`ve had only great interactions with him here in cyberspace.

Just this 1st post huge complaint thing. Granted the customers and maybe the captain did some very wrong things but from my point of view none of it would have ocurred if the charter boat wasn`t crowded in a area relatively void of boats because SK and company saw them taking a few fish.

Peace.... Mike

Guys,
FWIW, he posted this early this morning on the SNESA mailing list and a number fo guys on the list suggested he post it here as well as the other place. Armand is also on the list and will eventually see it if he hasn't already, so I believe Samurai when he says that Armand was the capt. FWIW, it sounds to me like there is more than enough fault to go around.

It sounds to me like the capt's actions could have been influenced by his party,,, that doesn't justify the Capt's actions nor anyone else's.
Seems that there where some ingnorant raceist who jumped to conclusions. We all know what its like on shore and water when minoritys who don't know fish addicate get to close...I can't *&^$# stand it! and thats not even my bread and butter.

I lean toward believing Armands' take here! It's all about the other Charter Captains' willingness to get intentionally close to the "invading" boat, that starts "war chants" on- board, esp. among the "outgoing" & flamboyant drinkers of the party! The Captain sets the tone, & here that setting the table was the game of bumper- boats he was playing! Sorry-- there's never any need to get within 30- 40 yards of another boat minimally, esp. not on the open Ocean!

I don't know this Charter boat, nor fish on boats North of Rhody myself... nor fish Cod in Winter as I'm Bass- obsessed!... But: how dumb and aggresive CAN Charter Captains get with "recs." with absolutely no justification?

I'm chunking in the Western Sound on anchor last June, & pulling up Bass between 12- 25 lbs. here & there. I see a largish Charter boat anchored a half- mile from me, & wondered how he might be doing, as I released a 25 lber on this afternoon trip. After re-baiting my lines & relaxing, lo and behold this 50 foot + Charter boat is steaming right for me, where I'm sitting in 50 feet of water in the middle of the Sound alone! He anchors 20 yards away!, uptide of me!!... and so his fares are drifting their chunks back into my anchor line & under my boat! We're the only 2 boats there for miles! Now his fares are caught on my anchor- line, & frustrated with me "blocking" their fishing... & so now they're yelling & cursing at me!! I'm ruining their fishing after all! :huh: :wave:

Point is: there was a time where the Charter guys "knew the score" of proper fishing behavior & even basic Seamanship & manners... and most of those who were lacking out there during non- peak boating times were the Rec. boats! But: that's all changed today, for whatever reason(s). Some Charter Captains literally do behave like you're on their Ocean! And yes, they do like to incite & encourage their fares to join in the "us vs. them" warfare! :whackin:

Boy, I'm glad you grouped everyone together like that......

I said it before.....Big Ocean.....why must you all be on top of each other????? Its like when I have my kids at the beach....lots of sand but yet they must setup their play areas right on top of each other and then they are screaming at each other about who kicked sand at who!!!:huh: