Debate number two
 

This one was a little more interesting, although I didn't really see the gloves come off either side.

Overall I thought Obama offered more substance in responding to the questions. McCain was focused more on talking points.

Obama was more steady, and McCain seemed to be a bit more shifting.

What's perhaps most interesting as noted by a newsmaker, is that McCain didn't offer any of the acid that the campaign has had Palin recite the past week. As if he was embarrased by it.

Sniper, if Ayers and Wright are such huge character issues, why not bring them up now???

-spence

McCain Fail again.

my take =

Obama did not answer the questions, he just did not answer them, any of the simple questions:huh: just skirted around them.

McCain = same stuff he's been saying trying to drive it in to people, and defending the accusations from Obama


but I missed the beginning, I was still working :(

i've trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they both suck...this may be the first election that i abstain from voting.

Well, my friends, I did write a letter several years ago complaining that this could happen to Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.
My opponent, did nothing.

Yet neither of them sponsored any legislation to cure it.

They are both rich egotistical pansies.

I'll vote but I can't say with conscience.

Its a lot harder to insult or lie about someone when their 10 feet away from you and can call you on it.

I was suprised to hear Mccain refer to Obama as "that one". What could cause such an honorable person to fall so far?

Yea, that was pretty ugly. Sounded like something his advisors dreamed up but didn't actually expect him to use.

Striperman, love the new avatar :heybaby:

-spence

Obama is always a "I did" - I wrote a letter, I told so and so. Kind of goes with the ego criticism.
But there is never any result of his action. I thought it was a toss up overall, but Obama did very good in the begginning and made sense to me on a few points.

Also PaulS, the Wright and Ayers stuff is not a "lie" Whats a lie is that Obamas campaign manager said Obama did not know his past, thats a lie. I think its valid to address the people Obama has associated with. Pretty scary idealists. I dont think it made sense to bring up in the context of the debate, there are more pressing things to consider.

If Ayers isn't a lie then lets drag out McCain using his father's status to get better treatment as a POW.

Other than hearing the words "terrorist" and "radical" do you even know who Ayers is?

Saying that Obama was "palling" around with terrorists is a lie.

I think the relationship with Wright is far more suspect than Ayers to be honest. Unfortunately McCain already took Wright off of the table for the most part.

The entire Ayers argument is a joke. Yes, Obama has tried to minimize his exposure (like duh) but I've never seen anything that indicates the relationship went beyond the good (education for kids) and only flirted with sponsorship (Ayers supporting Obama for the IL sentate). Yes he was a violent 60's radical (in the 60's mind you) but it would appear as though he has reformed himself and has worked hard for education issues and to be a respected professor. The board that Obama chaired had several local prominent republicans on it as well.

One thing is for sure, that using a 60's relic to bring attention to Obama's Muslim heritage and somehow associate him with modern day radical Islamism...is certainly appaling.

The video clips of Palin's events with the crowd shouting "terrorist" and "kill him" are surreal to say the least. And she just stands there and smiles? The entire "he's not like us" argument is code speech, and very dangerous.

-spence

The most he was ever connected with was blowing up.... wait for it...


wait for it....


A STATUE

Oh, and helping bust Timothy Leary out of jail.

OH THE HUGE MANATEE

The issue I have with bringing up Ayers is it was such a different time.
So many people connected to so many things, what was going on, how things were handled.

Protesters protested.
People spoke out.

People did ALOT of crazy crap that most likely will never happen again on that scale.

Thufir Hawat is a geek idol

"McCain using his father's status to get better treatment as a POW" are you farkked? When the No. Vietnamese figured out his daddy was a high-ranking admiral, they beat & tortured him less. Real noble people. Then they offered early release, which Mccain refused, so they tortured him more.

Ding, dong - I get it. So, this must mean that Ayers is a lie, eh? So the "statue" bombing was all? Nothing to do with the people that died when they were building anti-people bombs with NAILS inside? Granted, the people that died were Ayer's friends and cohorts. Let's be relieved they died in product development + Q.A. rather than on the people they INTENDED to kill.

Ahhh, so that makes it OK. :lama:

Thanks John, saved me the reply.

Likwid, I can only tell you how I feel personally. I knew some shady characters growing up, kids that were involved in things I didnt believe in. I hung with a pretty wild crowd so these people were pretty out there. i chose not to hang around with people because they werent what I was about, sometimes at the expense of being a wimp in my friends eyes.
Obama, TO ME, as a reflection of his character has associated with people that are reprehensible. I do know what Ayers did and stand for, I actually did a presentation in High School on the Weather Underground, a POSITIVE, presentation. But now that I have matured I see the flaw in this behavior. Obama should have as well and should have avoided Ayers and Wright.
I do not think "pal around" is beyond any of the stretchs either candidate is throwing out there on the issues.

McCain 'palled around' with Friggin Keating, another wallet grabber of the deregulation kind.

Which is worse enemy of the people an anarchist or one that has the laws bent to their benefit so they can profit off of the unwashed masses?

Jimmy, Obama only associated with Ayers decades after this behavior!

Your analogy is moot!

-spence

yes Moot and its one of the few pieces of the puzzzle that the GOP can use against Obama.

Can you guys please PM me you Social Security numbers....before I associate with you anymore I will need to run a Background Check.

I'm pretty sure a few of you are Un-savory

No its not, its a judgement call. Obama should have shown better judgement. He is a politician and must understand the implications of his actions and associations.

and flying your family to the bahamas 5 times on a private jet that is owned by a special interest group is not bad judgment? :rtfm:

Totally farking bad judgement. Should have used the Bud Airship instead.
That person is totally Mr. DeRegulation. Send him to Afghanistan to talk to Osama, without pre-conditions.

Then explain to me, if this is so important, why Ayers wasn't seen as a person of great contraversy within the city of Chigago up until now?

He seems to actually have been quite respected in the community for his work and dedication.

Jimmy, you're being punked by a Karl Rove strawman.

-spence

this whole country has been punked for the last 8 years spence.

Imho, pretty much a tie.

I think the McCaine proposal to use 300 billion, if it is taken from the 700 billion rescue plan,
to reduce real estate values to true values by paying the difference in troubled mortgages to equalize the market is worth looking at.

When it comes to Obama's associations with Ayers, Rev. Wrigth, Father Flager and other questionables,
i like the old addage, "birds of a feather flock together."

I know something has to be done, but like a fool I've been paying my mortgage payments in full and on time. It :cens: burns me up to know some of those who haven't , will get a new loan and reduced monthly payment. :yak4:

Come on, he is a topic becuase of Obamas association with hi. And I punk for no one, I make up my own opinions on the importance of the association.

Up until they GOP decided they could use him to smear Obama, he wasn't seen as a contraversial figure in Chicago...he was a pretty mainstream educational professor.

Do you think parents were letting their kids be educated by a terrorist?

What a joke.

-spence

I know FS, i;ve done the same and feel the same way, but i'd like to see some of that money used to help our citizens and by doing so help stabilize the real estate market.

I think it's worth looking into.

Geez, a guy who was tied to trying to bomb our own country,
and has said he wasn't sorry and wished he had done more becomes a MAINSTREAM educational professor?

Yes, he's currently a "Distinguished Professor" at the University of Chicago and seen as an expert on many social issues. Sounds pretty mainstream to me.

-spence

Here's a list of the books he's authored...There's some really radical stuff here we should all be afraid of :doh:

Education: An American Problem. Bill Ayers, Radical Education Project, 1968, ASIN B0007H31HU

Hot town: Summer in the City: I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more, Bill Ayers, Students for a Democratic Society, 1969, ASIN B0007I3CMI

Good Preschool Teachers, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1989, ISBN 978-0807729472

The Good Preschool Teacher: Six Teachers Reflect on Their Lives,

William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1989, ISBN 978-0807729465
To Teach: The Journey of a Teacher, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1993, ISBN 978-0807732625*

To Become a Teacher: Making a Difference in Children's Lives, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1995, ISBN 978-0807734551

City Kids, City Teachers: Reports from the Front Row, William Ayers (Editor) and Patricia Ford (Editor), New Press, 1996, ISBN 978-1565843288

A Kind and Just Parent, William Ayers, Beacon Press, 1997, ISBN 978-0807044025

A Light in Dark Times: Maxine Greene and the Unfinished Conversation, Maxine Greene (Editor), William Ayers (Editor), Janet

L. Miller (Editor), Teachers College Press, 1998, ISBN 978-0807737217

Teaching for Social Justice: A Democracy and Education Reader, William Ayers (Editor), Jean Ann Hunt (Editor), Therese Quinn (Editor), 1998, ISBN 978-1565844209

Teacher Lore: Learning from Our Own Experience, William H. Schubert (Editor) and William C. Ayers (Editor), Educator's International Press, 1999, ISBN 978-1891928031

Teaching from the Inside Out: The Eight-Fold Path to Creative Teaching and Living, Sue Sommers (Author), William Ayers (Foreword), Authority Press, 2000, ISBN 978-1929059027

A Simple Justice: The Challenge of Small Schools, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2000, ISBN 978-0807739631

Zero Tolerance: Resisting the Drive for Punishment, William Ayers (Editor), Rick Ayers (Editor), Bernardine Dohrn (Editor), Jesse L.

Jackson (Author), New Press, 2001, ISBN 978-1565846661

A School of Our Own: Parents, Power, and Community at the East

Harlem Block Schools, Tom Roderick (Author), William Ayers (Author), Teachers College Press, 2001, ISBN 978-0807741573

Refusing Racism: White Allies and the Struggle for Civil Rights, Cynthia Stokes Brown (Author), William Ayers (Editor), Therese Quinn (Editor), Teachers College Press, 2002, ISBN 978-0807742044

On the Side of the Child: Summerhill Revisited, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2003, ISBN 978-0807744000

Fugitive Days: A Memoir, Bill Ayers, Beacon Press, 2001, ISBN 0807071242 (Penguin, 2003, ISBN 978-0142002551)

Teaching the Personal and the Political: Essays on Hope and Justice, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2004, ISBN 978-0807744611

Teaching Toward Freedom: Moral Commitment and Ethical Action in the Classroom, William Ayers, Beacon Press, 2004, ISBN 978-080703269-5

Sing a Battle Song: The Revolutionary Poetry, Statements, and Communiques of the Weather Underground 1970-1974, Bernardine Dohrn, Bill Ayers, and Jeff Jones, Seven Stories Press, 2006, ISBN 978-1583227268

Handbook of Social Justice in Education, William C. Ayers, Routledge, June 2008, ISBN 978-0805859270

City Kids, City Schools: More Reports from the Front Row, Ruby Dee (Foreword), Jeff Chang (Afterword), William Ayers (Editor), Billings,
Gloria Ladson (Editor), Gregory Michie (Editor), Pedro Noguera (Editor), New Press, August 2008, ISBN 978-1595583383

:agree: I wouldn't want a bunch of abandoned homes on my street, but WTF, 2 1/2 x your salary = house you can afford. Why did this go away?

chit, I had to buy on a main road because I couldn't swing the cost of a nieghborhood :fury: :smash:

Fook it, I'm way off topic now, might have to go the church of the 'Grumpy Old Farts' forum.

Taking a step back, Me and my family have our health, so when push comes to shove, we've got all we need.

Time to go fishing.

there is also a collection of professors at major universities who believe Bush and Cheney planned 9/11. I heard them on a talk show a few years ago. They are actively teaching today. So Spence, using employment at a university as a qualification for mainstream doesnt fly with me.

Who knows what's in those books?
I'd have to read them all for myself before calling him a mainstream educational professsor.

They, like any books ,could of been written by an author who believes, "if you can't convice them with facts, smother them with :bs: :)

If you read my post you'd know that that wasn't the single basis for my assertion. Nice try...

And Justplugit, it's not about smothering with BS. Rather the product of his work is a good indication as to his state of mind. I see a person focused on teaching and social issues, not a rabbid terrorist.

-spence

People change. People learn. People evolve.

All things that McCain followers struggle with. :hihi:

What has McCain evolved into, other than a beltway has been.

Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis calls Barack Obama’s connection to William Ayers, an unrepentant terrorist who was part of the Weather Underground — an anti-war group that planted bombs and killed cops — “troubling.” I say it is outrageous.

The Weather Underground did damage right here in Boston. On Sept. 23, 1970, BPD Officer Walter Schroeder was gunned down outside a Brighton bank that had just been robbed by five members of the Weather Underground. One of the terrorists opened fire on the cop. With bullets from a machine gun the group ripped off from a National Guard armory in Newburyport just weeks earlier, Schroeder was shot in the back and killed.

Schroeder left behind a wife and nine children, aged 17, 15, 13, 10, 9, 7, 6, 2 and 11 months. The gunman, William “Lefty” Gilday, was captured along with three accomplices. The armed getaway driver, Katherine Powers, fled and remained on the lam for 23 years. When she was finally caught, Powers was treated with the same despicable reverence that Obama’s friend Ayers has been given by the media. Like Ayers, Powers was profiled as a hapless revolutionary caught up in the tumult of the Vietnam War rather than what she truly is: a cop-killing lowlife.

That fact was not lost on Schroeder’s daughter, Clare, who delivered a powerful victim impact statement at Powers’ sentencing in 1993. “Powers’ crimes, her flight from justice and her decision to turn herself in have been romanticized utterly beyond belief,” Schroeder said. “My father’s life was cut short for no reason, shot in the back with a bullet of a coward while Ms. Powers waited to drive that coward to safety.” The Weather Underground was also involved in a Brinks robbery in Nyack, N.Y., that left two cops and a Brinks security guard dead. Those murders also left nine children fatherless.

So for Obama to think it is OK to launch his political career in the living room of two Weather Underground members, Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn — the couple, like Powers, went underground as fugitives after a bomb-making factory blew up on a residential Manhattan block, killing three people — and then explain the association away by saying, “I was 8,” is outrageous. People need to wake up and realize that Obama’s anti-American pals, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers, are not just “troubling.” The associations are frightening.

Guilt by Association
By David Knowles
Oct 7th 2008 9:27AM

In philosophical parlance, it is known as the "Bad Company Fallacy." Guilt-by-association posits that if you befriend someone who has questionable beliefs, then, by definition, you too have questionable beliefs.

This "company you keep" critique has been a running theme in this year's race for the White House, and it exploded this week when Sarah Palin and John McCain decided to try refocus Barack Obama's associations with William Ayers and Jeremiah Wright into a central theme of their campaign.

Obama has fired back with McCain's involvement in the Keating 5 scandal, and, in terms of questionable religious affiliations, we watched the rise and fall of one-time spiritual adviser John Hagee.

McCain was forced to denounce Hagee, and Obama was forced to exit Trinity. McCain has called his role in the Savings and Loan scandal his ethical "asterisk," Obama has repudiated the Weathermen. Obama has called his housing deal with Tony Rezko a "bone headed" move. And McCain has been desperately trying to distance himself from President Bush. And so it goes.

On the Veep front, we've seen the video of warding off witches at Sarah Palin's Pentecostal church, and learned of Todd Palin's affiliation with the secessionist Alaska Independence Party. Joe Biden's son, we now know, was a lobbyist.Further on down the list, we have the people who work for the respective campaigns. Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, runs a lobbying firm that did well by Fannie and Freddie over the past few years. Obama briefly had a guy who was on his VP search committee who was Fannie Mae's chief executive.

As we tread through this thicket of sticky burs, it's hard not to notice that amid all the one-upmanship there's a whole lot of "do as I say, not as I do" going on with these people. The double standards are so prevalent that each campaign seems more intent on screaming "He did it, too!" rather than examining its own motives. They compile lists of the other guy's wrongs, as if whoever has the biggest number of questionable affiliations at the end of the day will automatically be declared the loser.

Well, I would suggest to you that guilt by association is not a good metric for picking a president. Instead, let's try to focus on voting records and policy proposals. I know that's a whole lot less splashy, in a tabloid sense of the word, than concocting a scandal du jour. It may not get the blood boiling like all the imagined conversations between our candidates and their tainted associates. But maybe, just maybe, it's a more sensible way to go.

So now "bank robber" = "terrorist"? You're really out there on this one.

Granted I wasn't old enough to see it first hand, but the Vietnam war certianly did seem to bring out the worst in a lot of people. Doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions, but it sounds like eventually people were.

Reminds me of the story some years ago about some relious wacko's burning rock music. The pastor holds up a copy of "Demons and Wizards" (Uriah Heep baby) as an example of how evil it is.

If he bothered to actually listen to the song, he'd know it was about a demon who met a wizard in the woods who turned him to do good for the world.

Old LP's have a very low melting point.

-spence