Anyone following what's going on in Wisconsin?
 

To me, what the Dems are doing here is cowardly, cry-baby obstructionism. Should generate some interesting debate! God forbid teachers pay 14% of healthcare costs (everyone else pays 30% - 40%).

Missing Wisconsin Democrats Who Skipped Anti-Union Vote Left the State, Senator Says - FoxNews.com

I thought elections had consequences? That's what all the Dems were saying aftre 2008?

And I've had all I can take with these unbelievably greedy teachers acting as if they are taking a vow of poverty for the good of the kids. The Gov of Wisconsin is asking that teachers increase the portion of their healthcare plans to 12.6 percent, WHICH IS LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT THE AVERAGE TAXPAYER IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR PAYS for their healthcare.

In other words, the governor is proposing that teachers pay HALF AS MUCH for their healthcare as the rest of us, and - GASP! - the teachers are all calling in sick, forcing schools to close.

Tell me again why I'd be wrong for calling these teachers blood-s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g parasites? They're not willing to pay HALF of what everyone else has to pay?

And these legislators get to flee the state, and presumably still get paid for their services? And Republicans get called obstructionists?

The dems are doing what their voter-base wants.

The best line I heard from this:
Union Person: We're going to have our voices heard come the next election. These officials will be put out of office because of this.
The Republican Response: We feel as though the voters got their point across on November 2 when they elected us to fix these problems because the Democrats weren't.

We've gotten into many long threads about the Unions. I'll be very interested in what comes from this. Wisconsin isn't the only place that this is happening - New York, New Jersey and a few others are putting together similar actions, with some Democratic support in many of those cases.

I'll take a matching, insurance raise, come on, let's get a reality check for the rest of commercial business.

"The dems are doing what their voter-base wants."

BBut why do liberals, unless they are in a union, want to be taxed into oblivion so that a few folks can get rich?

I'd love anyone here who supports the union workers, to answer ONE question...Given the economic situation where are all on, how can unionized employees complain about paying less than half of what everyone else pays? Why do unionized employees deserve such preferential treatment.

Another thing Johnny? I know you have the respect of many here (including me), and I know you own your own business. If your employees got together and said "Johnny, we demand that you give us pensions for life, and we're only willing to pay 0.2% of the cost, so you pay the other 99.8%. We also want health insurance, wnd we're only willing to pay 6% of the cost, so you pay the other 94%">

Could you absorb that cost? Would you be able to pass that cost onto your customers? I didn't catch what type of business you own, so maybe it's not applicable to you, but I'm curious...

they all hopped on a bus and left the state...this is hilarious...I guess their voters want them to leave?

we will enjoy two years of this class warfare and public sector and union thug unrest from the "ME PARTY" until the Community Organizer is reelected...:uhuh:

Only one word for the democrats of Wisconsin,

"COWARDS!"

You left out selfish.

They can balance their budget without raising taxes, if the unions would be willing to pay half as much for their benefits as everyone else.

And they respond by throwing a tantrum.

I agree that the proposed bill is unfair, because I don't see why unionized workers shouldn't pay THE SAME as everyone else. Why should the taxpayers bear that burden? Anyone?

Unless specifically stated, everything below is just my opinion from observations and educated guesswork. This is going to be a long one, so sorry in advance.

I believe there are two main groups in play that contribute to the large number of people that are supporting the unions:
1. The "What about the children?" group. This group (I'm speculating) consists of your cliche 'bleeding-heart liberals', non-property owners and, to be expected, people with children.
These people feel as though teachers make major sacrifices in their lives "because they care about the kids." They don't look at the big picture - in some areas (like WI) teachers are paid less than average *but* receive killer benefits, the pension, shorter work days and other contract-dictated protections.

2. The anti-establishment group. These are your typical Democrat that believes Unions protect 'the little guy'. My guess is that this group consists mostly of middle income people, may or may not own a home or younger folks especially college age or just after college. This group believes that the towns (and all businesses) will abuse the little guy at ever chance they can get. The mindset of these people is (and this was actually said to me yesterday when I told them I'm anti-Union): "Well, I hope you get stuck in some non-Union job in the private sector and your boss walks in one day and tells everyone they are cutting pay by 50% across the board." When I asked for an example of this ever happening, I was told "You just don't get it."
Essentially, I consider this group misguided. They have a philosophical difference from me. To argue with them and try to change their opinion would be as futile as debating with someone why my religion is better than yours. Unless there is an epiphany, philosophical differences won't be resolved.

There are a few commonalities between both these groups. They are small picture type of people, tunnel-visioned on only the exact subject at hand without looking at the broader ramifications. They don't think "how are we going to pay for this?". They don't understand why using today's employees to pay yesteryear's retirees
is unsustainable. More likely than not, they don't understand how a pension works or what the dollar-value is on the Cadillac plans these Unions argue for.

I don't deserve any more respect than the next guy.

To your question, I'd fire all of them. Done. Looking at that large an increase in overhead, I'd keep only my managerial staff and subcontract all the other positions because it would be cheaper. Then I'd tell the staff remaining that if they wanted to pull that crap, they're the next ones gone. Legal? Very questionable, but it sure as hell would get the point across. Most of my staff gets paid better and with more schedule flexibility (8hr day inc. paid lunch, rarely a 'no' if they ask to leave early, never asked to try to come in during bad weather) than any of my competitors pay and they know it.

Loyalty and paying for high quality and excellent service has gone away in my industry. As such, any additional costs have to be absorbed.

[QUOTE=JohnnyD;837903]Unless specifically stated, everything below is just my opinion from observations and educated guesswork. This is going to be a long one, so sorry in advance.

I believe there are two main groups in play that contribute to the large number of people that are supporting the unions:


one more...politicians that are afraid of losing their base of support or having them show up on the lawn of their home terrorizing their family.....great analysis JD

hey, there was a story here yesterday of an ambulance co. that was having to lay off a slew of workers because of reductions in either medicare or medicaid reimbursements, can't remember which...are you affected by cuts like those with your operation?

File this under the category of "you cannot make this up".

Turns out the 14 Democratic senators who fled the state (remember, they fled the state because they were opposed to these union cuts) are staying in a hotel in Illinois.

THEY ARE STAYING IN A NON-UNION HOTEL.

In other words, when these azzholes are spending their own money, they have no intention of absorbing the cost of insane union demands. But these SAME JERKS think all of the taxpayers should be forced to pay that which these clowns won't pay themselves.

Nancy Peolisi is siding with the unions. Nancy Pelosi owns vineyards and hotels in California, zero of which are unionozed.

And I get criticized for saying liberalism is a mental disorder.

Honestly, I don't even bother considering politicians. They will do/say whatever they need to in order to appease their voting base. None of them have any backbones... not a single one.

Haven't been on an ambulance in almost 2 years. I keep my emt credentials current, do continuing education and things like that as a fallback plan should anything happen with my company. Turnover is typically high at ambulance companies so it's pretty easy to find a job with at least one of the 4-5 companies in the area.

Costs me up to $500/year to keep my credentials current and 50 hours of classroom time but I consider it a small price to pay to have a fall back plan should the s#$% hit the fan and I need new employment or to pick up a second job.

oh, I was under the impression that your company was an ambulance co.

Should they pay more? sure.
Should they lose their right to collective bargining? No. that is the crux of this right now. Funny how the police and fire unions were conviniently left out this time around....

"Assault on the unions." spoken once again from a great intellect.

Guess who.

Here is a hint: Spoke out aganist Cambridge police.

He can not balance his own budget, why would he want to speak out aganist the Gov. of Wiscosin?

On another note, It is illegal for teachers and firemen to be protesting on strike in Wisconsin. Fire any teachers or firemen that do not have a letter from their doctor stating that they were sick.

No school, "they really are in it for the kids." Oh really.

Governor and legislators should hang tuff.

"Should they lose their right to collective bargining? No."

There is no consensus in this country that we have a fundamental right to collective bargaining.

"that is the crux of this right now."

The hell it is. The unions are screaming that the proposed cuts (excluding the loss of CB) are too stiff.

Fine, let use the cost angle alone.

You love to use the analogy of the increasing taxes to pay for the unions and public workers you clearly demise. Joe taxpayer has a budget, then his taxes double and he can't afford his house anymore, sound familiar?

Lets flip the coin. These people have budgets and expenses etc.. and the govenor et al., want that to change significantly, drasticly increasing their costs to what you pay in the private sector. (FWIW, We have family benefits from a private insurer. We don't pay anywhere near 30-40% of health care costs. When my son was born the largest bill was for the cable in the hospital room.)

How do you expect the teachers to react? Oh no problem, we'll jump onboard. No, they will try and fight for what they percieve to be right. I forgot, your wife, when she goes back to taching will take the pension in the meantime because it is whats best for your family, while lobbying for it to change to a 401K.

I'm not saying either side is right, but it doesn't make either side wrong. Joe blow losing his house because taxes went up, ot Joe teacher losing their house because their health care costs went up.

then again, all those teachers are rich grady-white owning scam artists anyways :smash:

have a good weekend.

And JohhnyD, I like your posts, but if you really believe most teachers work shorter days, comeone... less days, yes, shorter, not really, and I'm a property owning, kid having left center liberal, where does that put me? :D

no idea where to even start with that one but I think they're being asked to pay 12% of their hc premiums and contribute to their pensions....draconian :uhuh:

I think Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton just showed up...it's not a real protest till they arrive.....

"You love to use the analogy of the increasing taxes to pay for the unions and public workers"

It's not an analogy, that's literally what happens. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for these benefits?

"We don't pay anywhere near 30-40% of health care costs. When my son was born the largest bill was for the cable in the hospital room.)"

You need to get the facts. No one is saying that folks in the private sector pay a 30% co-pay. But we do pay 30% of the cost of our healthcare insurance policy through work. That's what we're talking about. We pay 30% of the premiums, teachers in WI pay 6%. That's fair!!

"How do you expect the teachers to react?"

(1) I expect them to show up for work the next day, or make room for those who will
(2) I expect them to thank their lucky starts that the proposal still only asks them to pay half what everyone else pays
(3) I expect them to thank their lucky stars that they still have pensions, which no one else has
(4) I expect them to say, "gee, you all went through this same thing 15 years ago? Now I almost know how you feel, but not quite, since I still have tenure, a pension, I'm still exempt from social security...

"I forgot, your wife, when she goes back to taching will take the pension in the meantime because it is whats best for your family, while lobbying for it to change to a 401K. "

You're damn right we'll lobby for 401(k)'s. That's clearly what's right, and in Wisconsin, these cuts are what the public voted for. That's what we call "democracy", you see. Although, she probably won't go back.

The Republicans did not like Sonia Sotomayor, so they asked her tough questions during her hearings. They didn't sabotage the democratic process. Yet they were still called "obstructionists" by lefty morons.

Yeah, I thought Lincoln freed the salves????

I do not know where you live, but, a teacher is not losing their home where I live and properties are not cheap here. The teachers here go to a 2nd job for the summer, at least those that want to work.

I exspect them to act sencesibily. When most Americans in the private sector pays 60/40 for health insurence, they should have no qualms paying 12-14 percent.

I do not pay 30-40 percent either, the company that I work for pays the whole premium, I do pay the first 1,000.00 of a hospital bill visit and the insurence pays everything else the rest of the year. My first visit this year cost 6,000, I paid the 1,000, my second visit the other day was 3,000.

In Wisconsin the average pay is 68,000 and with benifits is 86,000 not bad for 180 days. When I went to school 180 days is a half year, maybe you use modern math today.

I have expenses also and I do not sleep on the job for 24 hours like a fireman and then go to my day job for the next three days before retuning to my fire job get hurt on the day job and claim it on my city job.

No!, I did not leave out selfish.

I was talking about the dems, they are Cowards.

Yes!, the workers are selfish.

Dylan - the times they are a changin'- what is interesting is that changes must aand will be made.

Preliminary observation on my part - Democrats not facing reality and Republicans coming on too heavy could ruin a great game plan.

Republicans could score big if they soften their edge by 25%

Democrats have too big an adjustment to make on this IMO.

absolutely, the good thing is that we are having this conversation and all is on display, I hope that they show up at every capitol and state their grievances and one by one we can bring the contracts in line with the reality of the rest of the country and decrease the power held by the unions over the various levels of government, it won't be easy, might get ugly but these things need to be addresssed, people are going to be upset but there is just no way to continue to fund these benefits and entitlements as constituted....and the Justice Brothers will have something to keep them busy :rotf2:

your company factors the cost of insuring you into your total compensation...you might recieve a larger salary if you were not being insured, these teachers etc. don't look at it that way in my opinion, it is an entitlement to them, they rarely talk about total compensation...only the salary...they just expect full health benefits with little or no out-of-pocket on their behalf and expect a pension payment till they depart

the figures that I read were average teacher salary $56,594.61 ...on benefits there was a discrepancy between what the state reported and the schools but it was either around 32k(According to William Johnston, the district’s executive director of business, teachers during the 2008-09 school year received an average of $31,507.97 in benefits, an $11,000-plus discrepancy compared with state data....
or 42k(According to Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction data, the average fringe benefit for Unified teachers was worth $42,666 )...
so total average teacher compensation is/was about 90-100k

please browse these numbers...imagine if every city and town published these???? total cash compensation is mind bogglingEmployees Salaries Lookup

First no one in a union is getting rich.

Second instead of all of this anger towards union employees, whether public sector of private sector for what they have, shouldn't you all be saying if they can get it, why shouldn't I ?

Just out of curiosity, if all of this taxes goes to employees and benefits how is everything else payed for?
Are you for Social Security?

Are you for Medicaid? Are you for public assistance?

Buying just think if they got rid of buying back accrued sick time on retirement how much that would save?

What is going on in Wisconsin will soon be brought to RI, these unions are killing the states and must be brought down. The problem is there are few politicians willing to take the incredible media assault that will surely follow. For you bleeding heart liberals who think teachers are underpayed figure out their hourly rate based on a F/T job with more that 3-months off.

If I were Governor I would give these Teachers one more chance to get back to work or they are suspended without pay, don't like that then you are fired! The same could be said for the Union bought and payed for Democrat Representatives.

Massachusetts teachers
 

Have taught in New England for 38 years, 26 in Massachusetts.

A non-ending war since 2001 has gutted our taxbase and put government spending into the ozone. I respect and admire the active duty people who go above and beyond to carry out their missions. Do we need to bash Unions to bail out the politicians?

My association pays 25% of health care and I do not have a Cadillac plan.

Just a working shlep, looking to fish.

:thanks:

Probably illegal to fire them as they have a right to job actions, unless they have something like a "No Lay#^&#^&#^&#^& clause.

The problem is not the unions, it is the people who manage and agree to the contracts the union presents. The union bashing really needs to stop. If you had a job at Home depot, and one day the manager comes in and says to you 'John you now have to pay 60 a week for your health insurance instead of 15, would you be ticked? I bet you would, no one wants to take a step back from where they are.What you need to realize is this happens to people who work for companies with no bargaining. They chose that job, or career and they are now stuck with it. These people could band together and organize any time they want to, but they choose not to do it.

If we are in such dire straits in this country, why are millionaires like John Kerry drawing taxpayer paychecks. Let's face it they are not doing the job for the money, it is all the perks and benis. Free healthcare for life, pensions, free air travel, networking, partying etc. How come no one is bashing the politicians for all of their perks and beni's?

it appears that what the majority of Americans find offensive is the behaviour of the teachers...the unions are the problem, most Americans have dealt with teachers and/or unions and union workers in some form and understand the game and are quite tired of it :uhuh:

Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM
with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 peryear. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children
X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your
kids!)

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...00&id=13909370

To bad you failed to add up all the other perks you get along with the near $300.00 a day (for 7 hours of work). Lets see here every and any holiday off, two weeks off for Christmas, another week in Spring and usually a 5 day weekend for Thanksgiving. Lets not forget the long Easter weekend. Don't forget the 10 weeks for summer vacation (are you telling me there is nothing these teachers could be doing at the school for this time, hell they are being payed for it) Now lets look at the Pension, what's the going rate for RI after 25 years 60%-80% of your best years gross, for the rest of your life all on the tax payers dime. Lets talk about medical, maybe not the best plan but a very good plan for little or nothing out of your pocket. How about the workday, starts at 8:00am most wrap up by 3:00 at the latest.

Now lets say we have a bad teacher in the mix, maybe verbally or physically assaults the children, maybe has a drinking or drug problem, maybe preaches her/his political views in the classroom, maybe sexually assaults a student, can we fire that teacher, hell no they have union protection. I know only 3 teachers in RI and each of them have been lifelong drug addicts, do you think the school department would do drug testing, no because the union says we can't.

And with all the above, these folks still feel the need to strike, complain, riot, and hold our kids hostage for more, Well you will never get pity from me, what you would get from me if I could do it would be a kick in the ass right out the front door, then I would hire somebody from the real world who would actually appreciate the job.

that's Obama math....total compensation per teacher..let's use Wisconsin..is between 90-100k, I suspect that it is quite a bit higher in other areas...somehow the benefits etc always get left out of the earnings figures...arguing that teachers don't make enough money or that they shouldn't have to contribute tiny amounts like 12.6% of their healthcare premiums has really lost any merit...

don't mind highly paid teachers as long as they are deserving, the system provided by the union makes it impossible to get rid of bad teachers, a crappy teacher is as highly paid as an exceptional teacher simply because of longevity, you can't move in good new teachers because others have been gumming up the works longer and when they finally decide to go they have to be supported for life....I mentioned before my wife is a teacher(non-union) my parents were teachers and I know a ton of teachers..I get it...I guess private school teachers are really getting screwed by the man using your analogy....if the NJ cost per pupil is 17k+ a year...

I'd be willing to bet that the good, quality teachers are sitting home watching this disgusted and wishing they could get back to their students and have an actual grasp of the reality of the situation...the crappy teachers are the ones holding the misspelled protest signs, the offensive slurs locked arm in arm with union thugs, Jesse Jackson and the various communist, marxist and other radical leftist perpetual protest brigade :uhuh:

oh, my daughter came home for school the other day and told me that for gym the teacher put a Taebow(sp) tape in and that was the class...babysitting at it's best:rotf2: probably has his Masters and everything

I basically agree with the legislators but, it is wrong for them to exclude the firemen, local police and state police. It should be done across the board.

Why are they excluded? They voted for the governor.

and paid into the war chest

Since ballots are secret, nobody knows who the firemen and policemen voted for. There is, on record, that out of the 314 police and firefighter unions in the State only FOUR endorsed him. The rest supported his opponent.

I think that I recall his rationale for not including the police and fire workers in the cuts is that he knew there would be resistance and possible strikes and blue flue type of reasons not to show up for work, and that their service was too critical to have that happen. May be a lame reason, don't know, but the reason is not because the police and fire workers supported him.