Originally Posted by Bronko (Post 962291)

Yea and at one point women couldn't vote and blacks we're slaves. The kid is a teenager probably struggling with some pretty serious issues both socially and emotionally and they are going to deny him the award? Total joke. The kid is gay, big deal. The Boy Scouts of America should be ashamed of themselves.
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Originally Posted by buckman (Post 962309)

It's a private organization . While I don't agree with it they can do what they want
There are few organizations that have accomplished what the Boy Scouts have for as long as they have. It's a wonderful organization that really could do without this rule
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Originally Posted by Fly Rod (Post 962284)

where is the disgrace....It is a known fact....no gays in the Boy Scouts....thats the motto

What's the problem????????? U do not get it

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND (Post 962321)

what a shameful story. Makes me have 1st let a lone 2nd thoughts about letting my son join someday...

Originally Posted by JohnR (Post 962329)

Rock - maybe by the time he is old enough it will have changed, maybe it won't. I foresee that it will within the next 20 years. If we threw everything away that was 90% good and 10% bad, we would never have anything.


The local council has stated they would like to see it changed but national hasn't - yet.

For someone that has a kid in Scouts, I can tell you he will be a better young man because of it and the good, far, far, outweighs the bad.

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 962376)

If sexual orientation should not be an issue, perhaps "Girl" Scouts and "Boy" Scouts should not be separated and the organization could just be The Scouts.

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 962376)

If sexual orientation should not be an issue, perhaps "Girl" Scouts and "Boy" Scouts should not be separated and the organization could just be The Scouts.

Originally Posted by spence (Post 962403)

I think you're mixing orientation and gender.

-spence

Originally Posted by Saltheart (Post 962427)

Kids start scouting at a very young age. My opinion is that most and in fact almost all understand nothing about why their sexual preference is what it is at 10 years old. So they join and as they mature they make a decision about hot dogs or tacos (I use this expression for humor but on purpose because to me its as unimportant to me whether you like boys or girls as it is whether you like hot dogs or tacos). This decision is actually made after the scouting has had a long time to influence their character and likely influenced their sexual preferences along the way. So since scouting spans these formative years , its rediculous for them to ban something at the end of a kids scouting experience that probably developed during the many years it takes to go through the program to Eagle Scout.

Anyway , I think the adult(s) who would deny a lifelong scout his Eagle Badge because he is gay is a far bigger threat to kids and scouting than the individual kids who may opt to be gay as they grow up.

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 962445)

Rather, the individual agrees, despite his inner desires, to abide by the rules of engagement.

Originally Posted by likwid (Post 962487)

So you want him to lie, which is against the rules.

Originally Posted by scottw (Post 962438)

this reminds me of when Eben was kicked out of the Miss Black America Beauty Pagent...who knew that they had rules that you had to be black, a woman and marginally attractive....he could have been a contender...

Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 962496)

If he chooses to lie, that is HIS decision based on whether it is more important for him to be a Scout and get whatever rewards he thinks that entitles him to.

Originally Posted by likwid (Post 962598)

Oh, so its his fault. I see.

Originally Posted by FishermanTim (Post 962899)

They are adamant against letting gays in the scouts, but I wonder how adamant they are about letting pediphiles have constant access to young impressionable children? That's when they pull the "Don't ask, don't tell" crap!!!

First, let me admit that I am neither pro nor anti the scouts or their rules, regulations, goals, or moral persuasions. My younger son attained Eagle Scout . I can't say that made him a better or worse person. I believe how he was brought up at home had more to do with that than the scouts. My interest in this discussion solely rests on the concept of free association as garanteed by the Constitution.

As for the scouts position on letting pedofiles having constant access to young scouts, I'm not familiar with that policy. I would think that the organization would be against that, but if it isn't, shame on it. If some instances of it have occurred, that might be more of a local nature than organization wide. In any event, pedofile activity is illegal and can be prosecuted, regardless of the scouts' policies on pedofelia. Being homosexual is not illegal, and consentual activity other than with minors is not illegal. But it is also not illegal for a private organization to have a policy against admitting "gays."

I'm not saying it's that way everywhere, but then again how many gay children are there in the scouts? Surely they can tell just by looking that he is or isn't, right?

Now if a person is displaying attitude and personal traits that are detrimental and damaging to the troop and it's core values, then maybe that individual should be asked to leave, but to defer that stigma on all gay boys/men is just not logical.

If heterosexuality is a core value, then it is logical to ask a homosexual to leave.

It almost sounds like the organization is saying that your sexual orientation is the most important factor in your life. I can only presume that you can be a lying, cheating, drug pushing drug user that bullies and assaults other children and be welcomed into the scouts with no questions asked.

It is saying that it is an important factor, not necessarily the most, in the core value of a scout and those that believe in all the values of scouting. That doesn't presume, not in any way, that lying, cheating, drug pushing drug users, bullies, and assaulters of children are welcomed into the scouts. Those are also against scouting core values.

But.....if you're gay and an honor student, a pillar of the neighborhood, an heroic award winning philanthropist who has been touted by civic leaders and peers alike, then you are SOL!!!

Sorry, but that's the picture that stories like this convey.

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 962345)

75-80% of Scouting units are chartered through religious organizations. The Mormon Church is the #1 organization that holds charters for scouting units and the United Methodist church is #2. The Catholic Church is #3

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 962999)

I guess you guys missed this. It might even be more than 80%

If the offical stand of these religions is that Homosexuality is a sin, and 3/4 of your organization's units are chartered through these religions...why would you says its OK and risk losing the support and backing for most of your units....that would take down scouting in no time.

Its a private organization and can choose its members as it see fit. Your unit can choose its members as it see fit....there is no rule that says you have to accept anybody. You can accept a boy and not accept his parent if you so choose. (this happens in cases of custody where one of the parents is noithing but a distraction)

2 things have to happen if this is ever going to get fixed....either the different church's stands on homosexuality need to change or more units need to start being chartered through civic organizations.

until then I doubt you will see anything change on this front. I would like nothing more than to be wrong and have it change....but as of now thats the stance...join if you want to...its a great organization that teaches a lot of useful skills to youth.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 963004)

TDF, if a large number of scout units are chatrered through, say, the Catholic church. Does that mean that all of those units (chartered by the Catholic Church) would automatically expel a kid for being gay?

Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 963004)

Or does the local scoutmaster have any discretion in that case?

Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 963004)

TDF, you know way more about this than I do...would you be OK with your kids going camping with fellow teenagers, or scoutmasters, who were gay? Even if you could not be there? I have to admit that would worry me.

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 963036)

Not automatically...but all it takes, as of now, is for one parent to make it an issue. Our troop is Chartered by the Catholic Church (Actually the K of C holds our Charter). Each unit is different though. The BSA sets a set of Guidelines on how to run a unit. Some units may embrace the outdoors as their basis of their program, some may embrace the religious beliefs as their basis.

A civic organization, such as the 4-H, may make Animal Husbandry and Gardening the basis of their program

The Mormon Church, who is the largest holder of unit charters, makes scouts mandatory for their youth as part of their youth development. They are required to do 2 years of it.

Advancement is advancement....what ever is written is what needs to be done to advance...no more, no less.

Never saw anything written down in the BSA handbook about sexuality....my Job as Scoutmaster is to make sure they do the requirements as written....all the way from Scout to Eagle...not up to me to pass judgement...last time I looked there was only one that was Qualified to do that.



Just like every program can be different, every Scoutmaster can be as well. Some, unfortunately, are on a big Power/Ego trip and think they call all the shots. What a lot of parents don't realize is that the scoutmaster can be removed. He is assigned that position by the Chartered Organization, and if they don't want you they are well in their rights to remove you...no questions asked. So parents can speak up if they are dissastisfied.



Myself, I would not have a problem with a gay Scoutmaster. The same rules of Youth Protection Training apply. No 1 on 1 situations, 2 deep at all times. and as far as a Gay scout...BSA does Venture Scouts which is Coed, so you go Camping with Heterosexual teens of both sexes...they aren't allowed to fraternize when camping so the same would apply for Gay scouts....this is a camping trip not a singles cruise.

I am also on pretty much every campout...I'm the 1st one up and the last one asleep. :hee: Not on my Watch