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It is discriminatory to refuse the service of baking the cake because of the association between where/when it is eaten and the clients' sexuality Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device |
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And if, as you say, the court would not likely have entertained the case if certain phrases or designs were requested, then that would be the "difference without a distinction." If the phrases or designs were intended to celebrate gay marriage, then the cake would be celebrating gay marriage, which the cake would do without the phrases and designs if it were intended to be used for a gay marriage. The purpose and use for which the cake is made, not its particular design, is what makes the baker intentionally complicit in a sacrilegious ceremony. His pre-baked goods were not made with those intentions. If he is required to sell whatever he has made and displayed to all comers, he has no control of how his goods are used once they leave the store. But he does have the volition not to make those goods in the first place. But if he makes them with the intention that they be used for unholy purposes, then he is complicit in those purposes and shares the sin. That may sound silly or "odd" to a non-believer, but to a devout faithful it is religious worship. |
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One can make a compelling case, that the first amendment says he can, as long as his refusal to do so, is based on religion. At least 3 SC justices will say he can (probably). When Obama's EEOC argued that Muslim truck drivers could not be forced to abandon their religion, the EEOC didn't say "unless anyone is offended, in which case they can be forced to abandon their religion." |
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As I have said several times in other threads, constitutional rights cannot contradict themselves. They work in concordance with each other. The right of free association, and the right to freely dispose of or use personal property cannot negate another's right to the same. Granted that a seller of property cannot, without contractual agreement, prohibit how the buyer uses that property once it is paid for, nor prohibit with whom the buyer associates when using his product once it is paid for. But it is also the right of the seller not to sell, and also the right of the seller to associate with whom he chooses. Neither, in either case, is denying the other's "rights." If one or the other is forced to deny his own right to satisfy the other's desire, that is tyranny, not a case of constitutional property rights, nor an instance of freedom of association, certainly not a support, in this case, of religious freedom. |
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http://www.westword.com/restaurants/...couple-5727921 |
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When sexual rights encroach on other rights, there must be a concordance of those rights. Sexual rights are not absolute against other rights. The right to sexuality does not trump all other rights. You cannot force your sexuality on someone who wants no part of it. The reasons for resisting someone's sexuality are various and numerous. One of those reasons is religious beliefs. Those religious beliefs may range from celibacy, to premarital sex, and to marriage. Sexuality, in and of itself, is a personal right. But the rights of others not to participate in your sexuality must not be abridged so long as it does not curtail your right to your personal sexuality. The right not to participate in your sexuality because of religious beliefs should not be abridged if it does not curtail your sexual rights. Not materially, nor otherwise, participating in your marriage because of religious views does not prohibit you from marrying or from celebrating your marriage, or from practicing your sexuality. |
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not just gay one's.. please present the whole story |
defenders of this behavior are mostly the same anti government crowd they know the constitution better than you crowd the my religion is better than you crowd and ray more and Trump never assaulted anyone crowd and the i'll never side with someone who they i thinks a liberal crowd reguardless of the evidence or behavior or lie spoken by anyone
and claim they are objective and love MAGA |
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the law in Colorado didn't change till July 2014....the incident was July 2012...and at that time Colorado not only would not recognize same sex marriage but as recently 2006 voters had voted to amend the constitution to define marriage as being between a man and a woman...two years later things changed in Colorado Colorado Amendment 43 was a referendum approved by the voters in 2006 that added a new section to Article II of the Colorado Constitution to define marriage in Colorado as only a union between one man and one woman. It passed with 56% of the vote. Same-sex marriage has been legally recognized in Colorado since October 7, 2014. Colorado's state constitutional ban on same-sex marriage was struck down in the state district court on July 9, 2014, and by the U.S. District Court for the District of Colorado on July 23, 2014. |
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In fact, the Supreme Court ruled in the Hobby Lobby and Little Sisters of the Poor cases, that religious issues of a sexual nature are still protected. The SC ruled that the ObamaCare laws that mandated that Christian business owners pay for birth control and abortion-like procedures, were unconstitutional. I |
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Then there's the Obama government's argument in the case of Muslim truck drivers. The federal government said that if reasonable accommodations can be made, then people at work cannot be forced to abandon their religious beliefs. In this case, there are other bakeries nearby, which were happy to provide the service. How is that not a reasonable alternative? There's nothing easier than insulting this guy. That's not the point. T WDMSO, do you think that the Bill Of Rights only applies to those sympathetic to liberals? "he my religion is better than you crowd" Who the hell is saying that here? ALL you have is insults. Nothing even remotely pertinent to the Bill Of Rights, which is all that matters. I don't agree with the baker on this issue. But obviously the text of the First Amendment, and the feds' argument in the Muslim trucker case, make it clear he has this right. |
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But if the question is whether or not the baker has this right, all that matters is that sentence in the bill of rights. Your opinions of what a jerk this guy is (and he may be a jerk), mean absolutely nothing to the question of whether or not he has the legal right to do it. |
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I posted one legal proceeding (the Muslim truck drivers) that was exactly on point. If you have legal decisions to suggest that Americans must forfeit their religious freedom to avoid hurting the feelings of others, please share. I mean that sincerely, that wasn't a wise-ass comment. "Are you aware that when the first amendment was drafted, states and local governments could abridge the free exercise clause?" Can you cite examples? |
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There were almost 100 years before the 14th amendment changed that states could abridge the free excerise clause. It wasn't the founders who did that, a congress a century later did that. If you believe in the absolutism of the document as created by the founders, you should also recognize that they, the founders, gave the states the right to abridge it. Others took that right away generations later. |
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And the First Amendment rights were not taken away. They were made stronger and more expansive by applying them to the states. |
Freedom of speech (now referred to as expression) and the free exercise of religion were meant to be freedoms practiced in the public, as well as the private, square. So there must be accommodations for those freedoms and others when they conflict.
If gay couple has right to buy whatever a baker sells, does the baker have a right not to sell certain products? Obviously, he has that right. He doesn't have to bake or sell Middle Eastern pastries, for instance. Would that be considered ethnic discrimination? No, it would be ethnic discrimination if he refused to sell the wares he makes to a Middle Easterner. So why, if he must sell whatever he makes to gays, should a baker have the right not to sell a wedding cake meant to be served at a gay wedding? If he practices his business according to his Christian beliefs, there is nothing in his religion that says he must not sell his wares to a non-believer. ln general, his baked goods have no religious connotation, with the exception of special occasions such as Easter and weddings. On those special occasions, his religion is paramount in the conception of the products meant to celebrate them. In his religion, those occasions represent a holy day or a holy sacrament. He cannot force anyone to buy his Easter cookies. In his religion, marriage is between a man and a woman. It is a holy sacrament. Marriage between same sex couples would be sacrilegious. For a Christian baker, if he is devout, there is no such thing as a gay wedding, and there would be no such wedding cake for him to make. Asking to bake such a cake would be asking him to participate in a blasphemy. Does he have a right to refuse such a request under his right to freedom of religion? If he is willing to sell to gays any of his wares which he has made with no intention that they serve some irreligious purpose, then in that respect he does not discriminate against them. But in matters of freedom of religion, as practiced in his public life, should he be forced to trespass his faith by participating in something that counters it? Is there no accommodation there between gay rights and religious rights? Sure there is. As was said above, he will sell any of the wares he creates in which he has or had no intention that they be used to blaspheme his religion. All the products pre-made and on his shelves are of that nature. If you prefer to have him bake something rather than buying a pre-made product, don't ask him to do so with the intention of serving some purpose that is contrary to his faith. That is asking him to participate in what he religiously believes is wrong. Just ask him to bake a cake. Then do whatever you want with it. Even ask for a wedding cake, but you don't have to tell him what it's for. If he asks you what it's for, and your honest, don't expect him to comply with your request if it makes him complicit in what he considers sin. His right to practice his religion in the public square does not negate a homosexual's right to marry. Both sides can be accommodated and made whole if neither is forced to deny their rights to accommodate the other's. |
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But that's not good enough for the liberals, at least on this issue. Everyone must be forcibly made to agree with them. |
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