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Got Stripers 09-12-2021 03:07 PM
Go back to that convenience store and this time knock the clerk unconscious damn near killing him with your hockey stick and again dangerous weapon will be part of the charges and the pour bastard will deal with ptsd for years.

detbuch 09-12-2021 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso (Post 1214002)
Seems your trying to use some linguistic gymnastics to cloud what American saw on TV Jan 6..

If using dictionary definitions is linguistic gymnastics, I guess that's what you do.

They were some how Trying to preserve it!

Definition of preserve (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1 : to keep safe from injury, harm, or destruction : PROTECT
2a : to keep alive, intact, or free from decay

If you're trying to "stop the steal," it would seem that you're trying to keep something safe.

Via insurrection because they lost at the ballot box .. don’t be mistaken their actions had nothing to do with the love of American or the constitution.. it was for the love of Trump

They didn't believe they lost at the ballot box.
They believed that the ballot box was "harmed." That it was "injured."
That it was not "intact." That the election was stolen. That the Constitution suffered a basic "destruction."

it was for the love of Trump

Another mind reader. Why should we even be having these discussions. Just ask you. You have the power to just know things, even what people really think when they say otherwise.

Essential Meaning of insurrection
: a usually violent attempt to take control of a government
He led an armed insurrection [=rebellion, uprising] against the elected government.

Here's another one for you from Cambridge: "an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government or ruler and take control of the country"

The elected executive branch of the government at the time was the Trump administration. There was no attempt to overthrow that duly elected and incumbent government.

Nor was there any proven overall organization of the rioters. There may have been some inconsequential and unrealistic planning by a few groups within the mass of rioters, but there was no overall organization. It seemed to be an incoherent mess. There was no coherent, organized claim to defeat the government and control the country. It is inconceivable how that could have been achieved, especially without some overall plan including a massive force of guns, ammo, and personnel.

If they had breached the congressional chamber, what then? They were going to tell Congress to surrender and that they were going to run the country?


Even Webster sees rebellion and uprising has the same meaning

You're using that sloppy technique of misusing language in order to persuade for a political purpose. The two words do not have "the same" meaning. Synonymity is a similarity or close relationship, not an exact sameness. Webster distinguishes the difference. The same goes for your above equation "an armed insurrection [=rebellion, uprising]" They are not equal. They have their own shade of meanings and connotations.

It is propagandistic technique to make words fluid in meaning in order to use the more inflamatory word that sort of sounds about right.

And seeing you put Armed in Bold your suggestion they weren’t?

Webster Definition of armed (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : furnished with weapons

Definition of weapon (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : something (such as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
From Factcheck.org: "a wide array of lethal weapons — including a firearm — were found on protesters at the Capitol" In addition . . . "According to a database compiled by NPR, of the people charged with violent offenses, including assault on police officers, 15 were armed with deadly or dangerous weapons during the riot at the Capitol."

"Eight others facing civil disorder or property destruction charges also were charged with possessing weapons, according to the database."

"Those weapons included baseball bats, chemical sprays, a captured police officer’s riot shield, a crowbar, fire extinguishers and a metal flagpole."

So, out of the over 600 that have been charged, one had a firearm and 23 others had other "lethal weapons" such as baseball bats, chemical sprays, a captured police officer’s riot shield, a crowbar, fire extinguishers and a metal flagpole."

There's you're armed "insurrection, uprising, rebellion, revolution, etc., and riot."

spence 09-12-2021 04:18 PM
We don’t know the extent of arms present as so many arrests were made after the insurrection. Playing with some stats doesn’t change anything. We know that guns, a lot of pepper spray and blunt objects were there as well as police batons and shields that were used to attack officers.

Lots of verbal run around.

detbuch 09-12-2021 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1214018)
We don’t know the extent of arms present as so many arrests were made after the insurrection. Playing with some stats doesn’t change anything. We know that guns, a lot of pepper spray and blunt objects were there as well as police batons and shields that were used to attack officers.

Lots of verbal run around.
"We don't know . . ." So let us conjecture and definitively accuse . . . call it an armed insurrection . . . that sounds about right . . . for our purposes.

scottw 09-12-2021 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1214014)
Go back to that convenience store and this time knock the clerk unconscious damn near killing him with your hockey stick and again dangerous weapon will be part of the charges and the pour bastard will deal with ptsd for years.
be honest...if you hear there was an armed robbery at convenience store on the corner....you assume they had a gun

scottw 09-12-2021 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1214018)

We don’t know the extent of arms present as so many arrests were made after the insurrection.
let's assume they were all very heavily armed....just couldn't hold the Capitol no matter how many shots they fired....

Got Stripers 09-12-2021 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1214020)
be honest...if you hear there was an armed robbery at convenience store on the corner....you assume they had a gun
^^^^ I thought only Jim could get his needle stuck like that.

scottw 09-12-2021 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1214022)

^^^^ .
a little honesty would be nice

Got Stripers 09-12-2021 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1214024)
a little honesty would be nice
Sure, I honestly can’t believe you think a gun is the only dangerous weapon and thus these fu*kheads were not armed, unless you just never watched a minute of the films from that day, your reaching for a conclusion only the really far right are believing.

scottw 09-12-2021 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1214025)
Sure, I honestly can’t believe you think a gun is the only dangerous weapon and thus these fu*kheads were not armed, unless you just never watched a minute of the films from that day, your reaching for a conclusion only the really far right are believing.
any nunchucks?....

probably could have avoided all of this if we simply replaced the Capitol police with social workers to safely de-escalate these types of situations...

spence 09-12-2021 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1214025)
Sure, I honestly can’t believe you think a gun is the only dangerous weapon and thus these fu*kheads were not armed, unless you just never watched a minute of the films from that day, your reaching for a conclusion only the really far right are believing.
He doesn't, his lot in life is to troll.

Pete F. 09-12-2021 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1213991)
"Interrupting" the certification in Congress is not an insurrection. It is not a revolt against an established government. The established government at the time was the Trump administration. The Biden administration was not yet established. There was no attempt to overthrow the Trump administration. No attempt or plan to overthrow the constitutional system of government, but, instead, somehow to preserve it from being "stolen." Nor were the rioters a single organized group with a coherent unitary plan on how to revolt against the established government. Nor were the vast majority of disparate rioters armed.

From Merriam Webster:
Insurrection--an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government . . . When is uprising a more appropriate choice than insurrection? The meanings of uprising and insurrection largely overlap; however, uprising implies a brief, limited, and often immediately ineffective rebellion . . . REVOLT and INSURRECTION imply an armed uprising that quickly fails or succeeds.

From Dictionary.com (British): the act or an instance of rebelling against a government in power or the civil authorities.
You can play the semantic game all you want, there are federal laws people are charged with. It’s a matter of public record.

The number of federal cases against individuals involved in the Capitol Hill Siege stands at 602. According to the latest analysis of the cases:

The average age of individuals was 39-years-old.
Individuals came from 44 states and the District of Columbia.
Cases have been brought against 523 men (87%) and 79 women (13%).
The largest numbers came from Florida (64), Texas (58), and Pennsylvania (53).
The majority (>85%) were charged in part using evidence from their personal social media accounts, others' accounts, or both
70 (12%) have military experience (65 Veterans, 2 National Guard, 2 Reserve, 1 Active Duty)

What lead these people to believe the election was stolen?

Lawsuits?

The "Kraken" lawsuits failed before every judge that heard their cases: Trump appointees, before Bush appointees (both), and Obama appointees alike.

Every single one rebuked them.

"This lawsuit represents a historic and profound abuse of the judicial process."

A federal judge in Michigan orders sanctions for Sidney Powell, Lin Wood and seven other pro-Trump lawyers for their election fraud lawsuit based on conspiracy theories.

So who and how did some group of people convince these largely middle aged, middle class Americans that the election was stolen?

Who were the proponents and funders of the stop the steal groups, how was this information disseminated?
What would someone gain from this movement and how would it work?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

detbuch 09-12-2021 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1214029)
You can play the semantic game all you want, there are federal laws people are charged with. It’s a matter of public record.

Actually, I've been responding to the semantic "game" that you and others play of labeling something as an insurrection for political effect.

The number of federal cases against individuals involved in the Capitol Hill Siege stands at 602. According to the latest analysis of the cases:

The average age of individuals was 39-years-old.
Individuals came from 44 states and the District of Columbia.
Cases have been brought against 523 men (87%) and 79 women (13%).
The largest numbers came from Florida (64), Texas (58), and Pennsylvania (53).
The majority (>85%) were charged in part using evidence from their personal social media accounts, others' accounts, or both
70 (12%) have military experience (65 Veterans, 2 National Guard, 2 Reserve, 1 Active Duty)

What lead these people to believe the election was stolen?

Lawsuits?

The "Kraken" lawsuits failed before every judge that heard their cases: Trump appointees, before Bush appointees (both), and Obama appointees alike.

Every single one rebuked them.

"This lawsuit represents a historic and profound abuse of the judicial process."

A federal judge in Michigan orders sanctions for Sidney Powell, Lin Wood and seven other pro-Trump lawyers for their election fraud lawsuit based on conspiracy theories.

So who and how did some group of people convince these largely middle aged, middle class Americans that the election was stolen?

Who were the proponents and funders of the stop the steal groups, how was this information disseminated?
What would someone gain from this movement and how would it work?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I don't "know" (a semantic possibility that those who play the semantic game of calling something an armed insurrection without proving that label yet "knowing" it is the correct one) if an actual, semantically correct "insurrection" took place.

And none of your above pieces of information even begins to illustrate that such a thing did take place. On the contrary, you referred to it as a "siege".

The semantic game changes from day to day.

scottw 09-13-2021 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1214027)
He doesn't, his lot in life is to troll.
I call it friendly mocking of stupidity...you can call it what you want....free country and all of that...:laugha:

Pete F. 09-13-2021 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1214031)
I don't "know" (a semantic possibility that those who play the semantic game of calling something an armed insurrection without proving that label yet "knowing" it is the correct one) if an actual, semantically correct "insurrection" took place.

And none of your above pieces of information even begins to illustrate that such a thing did take place. On the contrary, you referred to it as a "siege".

The semantic game changes from day to day.
There’s no need to guess what the StopTheSteal crew intended to do. They did it. They breached the Capitol. They might even have posted to Facebook a video of themselves doing so: “We’re in! We’re in! Derrick Evans is in the Capitol!” The “strong anti-government views” of those who stormed the Capitol left the realm of merely words and became actual violence.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
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detbuch 09-13-2021 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1214036)
There’s no need to guess what the StopTheSteal crew intended to do. They did it. They breached the Capitol. They might even have posted to Facebook a video of themselves doing so: “We’re in! We’re in! Derrick Evans is in the Capitol!” The “strong anti-government views” of those who stormed the Capitol left the realm of merely words and became actual violence.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Aha! Now it's seditious conspiracy. Will all 600+ be charged and convicted of this? Will the whole thing be an armed insurrection?

Pete F. 09-13-2021 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1214040)
Aha! Now it's seditious conspiracy. Will all 600+ be charged and convicted of this? Will the whole thing be an armed insurrection?
We will see, do you think the DOJ is just playing?

Virtually every federal criminal statute has a hidden feature; primary offenders and even their
most casual accomplices face equal punishment. This is the work of 18 U.S.C. § 2, which visits
the same consequences on anyone who orders or intentionally assists in the commission of a
federal crime.
Aiding and abetting means assisting in the commission of someone else’s crime. Section 2(a)
demands that the defendant embrace the crime of another and consciously do something to
contribute to its success. An accomplice must know the offense is afoot if he is to intentionally
contribute to its success. While a completed offense is a prerequisite to conviction for aiding and
abetting, the hands-on offender need be neither named nor convicted.
On occasion, an accomplice will escape liability, either by judicial construction or administrative
grace. This happens most often when there is a perceived culpability gap between accomplice and
primary offender. Such accomplices are usually victims, customers, or subordinates of a primary
offender. On other occasions, an accomplice will be charged as a co-conspirator because the facts
that will support accomplice liability will ordinarily support conspirator liability and conspiracy is
a separate offense.

detbuch 09-13-2021 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1214041)
We will see, do you think the DOJ is just playing?
Waiting and seeing is what I've done throughout all the attempts to bring Trump down. Unlike others
who made confidant predictions which often proved wrong.

And I don't think the DOJ is just playing. Don't know if it ever does.
And this DOJ may well prosecute to the hilt, and more, anything associated with Trump.

Pete F. 09-13-2021 02:17 PM
Just keep waiting and seeing, the same guy who refused to honor fallen American soldiers at Bois Belleau because of the rain actually commentated on a boxing match AND addressed the Moonies on 9/11 and you along with the rest of the Trumplicans still support him?
The same guy who without a lick of evidence has convinced the majority of his supporters that lost elections must be rigged
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detbuch 09-13-2021 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1214051)
Just keep waiting and seeing, the same guy who refused to honor fallen American soldiers at Bois Belleau because of the rain actually commentated on a boxing match AND addressed the Moonies on 9/11 and you along with the rest of the Trumplicans still support him?
The same guy who without a lick of evidence has convinced the majority of his supporters that lost elections must be rigged
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Your depictions belong in another thread and the first has been hashed over. Old news and has nothing to do with what I support. What I support has also been hashed over in other threads. Trump is not who nor what I support. I support the opposition to Progressive government. I am becoming increasingly confident that what I support is a losing cause.

But I can still comment on what I see as lies and deceptions. For whatever good that may or may not be of use.

Got Stripers 09-13-2021 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1214034)
I call it friendly mocking of stupidity...you can call it what you want....free country and all of that...:laugha:
Well your right about one thing we are mocking stupidity. Hey breaking news capital police arrested a man armed with a knife and machete ahead of Saturday’s rally, oh crap it wasn’t a gun so all the reporting is wrong, he wasn’t armed at all. You better call channel five and the rest of the networks and set them straight.

spence 09-13-2021 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1214057)
Well your right about one thing we are mocking stupidity. Hey breaking news capital police arrested a man armed with a knife and machete ahead of Saturday’s rally, oh crap it wasn’t a gun so all the reporting is wrong, he wasn’t armed at all. You better call channel five and the rest of the networks and set them straight.
He was probably there to defend the Constitution from Warwick based Antifa terror troops.

detbuch 09-13-2021 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stripers (Post 1214057)
Well your right about one thing we are mocking stupidity. Hey breaking news capital police arrested a man armed with a knife and machete ahead of Saturday’s rally, oh crap it wasn’t a gun so all the reporting is wrong, he wasn’t armed at all. You better call channel five and the rest of the networks and set them straight.
So he wasn't part of the Capital riot, insurrection, whatever you want to call it? Of the over 600 of those rioters arrested only one had a gun and only 23 others were armed with other things, bats, spray, flagpole, fire extinguisher, crow bar, riot shield.

spence 09-13-2021 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1214059)
So he wasn't part of the Capital riot, insurrection, whatever you want to call it? Of the over 600 of those rioters arrested only one had a gun and only 23 others were armed with other things, bats, spray, flagpole, fire extinguisher, crow bar, riot shield.
Highly misleading. Most were arrested later so you can't say only one had a gun, actually there was more than one found on Capital grounds. of the 23 those are just charges, not who actually wielded weapons (i.e. arms) against the Capital police. Watch the videos, that is the truth.

Got Stripers 09-13-2021 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1214059)
So he wasn't part of the Capital riot, insurrection, whatever you want to call it? Of the over 600 of those rioters arrested only one had a gun and only 23 others were armed with other things, bats, spray, flagpole, fire extinguisher, crow bar, riot shield.
Well he might have been and not yet identified and beating a capital policeman with a hockey stick, or baseball bat, flag pole, shield, or with a pistol is all assault with a dangerous weapon, spin your narrative all you like I’m not buying into it. I give credit to Bush coming out to put these people into the same boat as foreign born terrorists on 9-11. Oh and how did Trump pay his respects, probably on the links and of course he took offense to president Bush’s comments. Home grown terrorists are going to be our new threat.

scottw 09-13-2021 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1214061)
Highly misleading. Most were arrested later so you can't say only one had a gun, actually there was more than one found on Capital grounds. of the 23 those are just charges, not who actually wielded weapons (i.e. arms) against the Capital police. Watch the videos, that is the truth.
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I think it’s safe to assume that most of the insurrectionists that stormed the capitol that day were carrying several guns each probably…based on all of the gunfire we know occurred during the siege as well as all of the shooting that took place as the authorities regained control of the United States after it was overthrown briefly

Pete F. 09-14-2021 06:15 AM
Does it strike anyone else as illuminating that President George W. Bush criticized “violent extremists” and Donald Trump took this to be an attack on himself?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

scottw 09-14-2021 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1214073)
Does it strike anyone else as illuminating that President George W. Bush criticized “violent extremists” and Donald Trump took this to be an attack on himself?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
funny how smart leftists think Bush is now that he's not president anymore...when he was president he was an idiot and cheney was probably actually running the country....maybe they were misunderestimating him or something?

Pete F. 09-14-2021 07:24 AM
In yesterday’s rant, Trump describes George W. Bush as having "led a failed and uninspiring presidency." Which overlooks the inconvenient fact that, unlike Trump, Bush was re-elected.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete F. 09-14-2021 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1214077)
funny how smart leftists think Bush is now that he's not president anymore...when he was president he was an idiot and cheney was probably actually running the country....maybe they were misunderestimating him or something?
Silly troll, the difference is Trump never fulfilled the office of President. He couldn't take in the data, do the analysis, or lean on the experience & expertise around him to make the decisions required by the office.
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