Thoughts On Don't Ask Don't Tell?
 

I'm not sure if Obama has told Spence what to think on this issue yet, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

I have no huge problem with homosexuality. My guess is it's not a choice, but something you're born with (not many people would voluntarily choose a path thatr's so challenging and difficult). When I look at my wife, an involuntary biochemical reaction takes place. I can't help it, and I didn't choose it. It just is.

i want homosexuals to enjoy every happiness and opportunity they can.

I've also been in combat. And as an officer, I've had to order my guys to do some very dangerous things. When an officer is deciding who goes first through a door to clear a house, his men better not have reason to believe that the officer's decisions about who does what, are influenced by feelings of affection. If that happens, even if the men think it's happening, the unit cannot operrate in combat. It just can't. If my wife was under my command (let's say we were secretly married), there is simply no way I could be expected to order her into harm's way.

I was never a fan of DADT, I thought that was too tolerant. In my opinion, military combat units are not good places for politically correct social engineering. You can't do anything that disrupts the chain of command, you just can't. If an officer orders a private to take a hill, that private has the right to know that his selection was not even remotely based upon sexual affection, regardless of whether the affection is heterosexual or homosexual in nature.

Jim,
I've never been in combat or the military so I really cant say. From an outsiders view, I dont think we should stop people from serving their country based on their sexual affiliation. Any issues that arise could be handled the same way that issues with woman serving would be handled. Their should be strict rules of conduct and they should be enforced.

I heard this argument yesterday, what if the gay guy/gal refuses to take the hill because he/she thinks they're singled out for swiss cheese duty simply because they're gay.....but anyone could make the same case for virtually anything...."you're sending ME because I'm the only white, black, hispanic, married, single, left-handed, Jewish soldier in the platoon"....not sure that really holds up but if you "don't ask don't tell"...then.....at least one minority would be tougher to single out for swiss cheese duty :uhuh:

btw, I know plenty of very happy gay people...also know some that had a tough time growing up and are resentful for the way that they've been treated as a result of being gay, but this is not something that is unique to being gay....I knew a combat pilot who was gay and happy and very successful....

ignorant person here
 

does that stuff really come up when your in basic training or under fire in the field. seems like it shouldn't be a big deal. i mean, all our armed forces are out there doing a job, not talking about their personal lives. maybe the military is filled with homophobes, i don't know. pretty lame stuff....if someone can do the job there should be no problem regardless of their background.

Personally don't care....If a person wants to serve so be it.

Those same choices can be made if its your drinking buddy, or the guy that tapped your wife when you were on duty. As an officer you need to make your decision on whats best at that moment. You are picking the guy because you're a homophobe then its your issue...if the guy is blaming you because he thinks you're singling him out for whatever reason...then he's the one with the issue.

Bottom line is if you can both perform your duties while disregarding everything but the mission...then all is good

I am using "You" as figuratively....not saying you Jim in CT

I'm with these guys. If someone is going to put their life on the line to protect me and my family, I don't care if their gay, straight, bi, bi-curious, etc... I appreciate that they are doing it. They also have had the best training available to them and hoepfully aren't thinking about other soldiers' junk while in combat. If a straight soldier is worried about serving with gays, they need to get over themselves.

btw.....got a call from someone heading up 24 out of Fall River this morning and they were in awe of the dozens and dozens of State Troopers streaking south and every overpass filled with fire engines and ambulances waiting to salute the return of the body of PFC Ethan Goncalo of Fall River......gives you a chill...very sad that he is gone and very good to see the community displaying such enormous respect..

As long as they fight like a tiger , I don't care who or how they get their rocks off with.

I just don't understand why people have to even mention their sexual preference. I don't see how its part of the job or why anyone else even cares. Man or woman , keep your hands to yourself and be a soldier. I guess I just don't get it!

gay soldiers may be a bit victimized by the general protrayal of gays in popular media and culture and then trying to translate that somehow to fighting on the battlefield....would you watch a gay pride parade and then relate that to "fighting like tigers"?...or any gay characters on televsion, movies etc.....unfortunate but if the prevailing stereotype particularly gay men is not necessarily lending itself to the macho fighting machine image...was there a soldier in the Village People?

Dad, I didn't make my point well I don't think. I'm not saying the problem is if I order a homosexual guy into harm's way because I'm a bigot, although that would obviously be a problem. I was saying, if I'm an officer and I'm gay, and I have involuntary feelings of affection for one of my men, even if I'm not hooking up with the guy, I'm still more likely to put others at risk to protect the guy I like. I can't think of anything that would render a unit inefefctive as fast as that would.

I also reject the comparison of homosexuality to blacks. One's race is not a lifestyle choice.

Also Dad, there are rules in the military against going after someone else's wife. The rationale for that rule is exactly the same as my rationale for supporting the prohibition of gays from serving incombat units, it creates an environment that lends itself to bias.

There are also rules that prevent officers from being drinking buddies with men that you may have to order into harm's way. Those rules also serve the same purpose as my opinion.

If I'm in a firefight, I want the best soldier next to me, regardless of his personal choices. But in order for combat units to function day to day, guys need to have absolute trust in the chain of command. When you introduce sexual tension into that mix (whether it's homosexual or heterosexual), it opens the door to some very serious issues.

I'm glad it's not my problem to solve...

would you rather be in a foxhole with Barney Frank or Major Hasan? I know it's a tough one :confused:

I'd rather be by myself...

As I said, in the throws of a firefight, the orientattion of the guy next to you doesn't matter.

But in terms of the day-to-day functionality of a forward serving combat unit, I think it matters. Unless you had a unit that was composed of nothing but homosexuals (and boy does that image lend itself to some immature jokes) I can see major problems.

"all our armed forces are out there doing a job, not talking about their personal lives"

I couldn't disagree more. In the service, I got to know my boys better, in a shorter period of time, then anyone else I ever met. You get to know each other in a very deep way.

"does that stuff really come up when your in basic training or under fire in the field"

Yes it does. I did have first-hand knowledge of an officer who had some kind of relationship with the wife of a guy under his command. As a result, the officer had no moral authority whatsoever to order that guy into harm's way (because maybe the officer wanted to get the guy killed so he could be with his wife), and it basically ended the officer's career as a combat commander, because none of his men respected his authority to give them dangerous orders. It's hard to explain, the fact that nothing works unless everyone has absolute, 100% confidence in the orders you get from above. One chink in that armor, and it falls apart.

"if someone can do the job there should be no problem"

I agree 100% with that. I just think that when sexuality is brought into this unique situation of combat, one's ability to "do their job" is potentially severely compromised.

[QUOTE=Jim in CT;
"I agree 100% with that. I just think that when sexuality is brought into this unique situation of combat, one's ability to "do their job" is potentially severely compromised.[/QUOTE]

as much as gays may suffer with a certain stereotype and how it may translate to performance military combat in many minds..... the vast majority of us forming opinions on this have absolutely no idea what it is like to actually be in combat...I'm trying to understand exactly how, in combat, would someone's sexual orientation affect their job or ability to do their job, I'm not talking about the affair between the superior and subordinate, just...soldier open about the fact that he's gay(we're generally talking about men since we're talking combat) and how would that affect the situation of combat...I'm just curious, not trying to be a wise guy...I could see that in a situation where you are dealing with the jacked up pack killer mentality needed to go out and do what these guys do, it might be very difficult for an openly gay soldier to fit in, be welcomed and earn the confidence of his peers depending on the individual and various biases that might exist and if you are infact forcing a social experiment and demanding acceptance and punishing for intolerance his peers, it could potentially be a very bad situation

I have no doubt that gays can admirably perform just about any task expected from a combat serviceman. I am 100% confident in that conclusion, and i have never heard any rational person suggest otherwise.

And if I was in combat, for-real combat, you can bet that no one would care about the sexual orientation of the guy watching his back.

And while I have no direct experience with gays in the military, I can forsee problems with morale, spirit, and confidence, based on the hypothetical, but not outlandish, scenarios I posted earlier.

There are other things like logistics. Because while I have no problem with homosexuals, I wouldn't want to shower or bunk with them, just as I would be opposed to men and women bathing and bunking together.

I'm very curious to see how this goes, and I hope my concerns prove to be groundless.

Exactly my opinion.

in 4 years there will be a brigade of highly skilled Killers. They will be all 250 lb bull dyke lesbians in tank tops and mullets and they will avenge all of the womens rights violations in Afghanistan.

in all seriousness, people were saying the same things when they integrated blacks into the military.

already in the works..in book and soon to be at the movies at least....something tells me these gals will look more like Baywatch beauties than.... well...what you described...

The Athena Project by Brad Thor

Description
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Then Things have changed since I was in....because the minute a ship left port...that night the E.M. Club was loaded w/ wives looking to hook up....and plenty of Sailors more than willing to oblige


Also remember My Division Officer whipping out his AMEX Gold card and treating some of the Guys in our Division to some of the "Joys" of Amsterdam"

Just because there are rules doesn't mean they are always followed to the "T"....there we always rules against fraternization....didn't matter, If the Officer was cool we would drink together.

Couldn't the same be said if your best buddy was one of your subordinates?


And many would reject that it is a 'lifestyle choice'

Off topic, but there are a great number of our servicewomen who are suffering at the hands of our own servicemen in country....A lot of rapes and unwarranted advances being kept from the public. Happens within military personnel stationed here at home as well, but the numbers skyrockets when on deployment. This was one of the concerns about women in the military from the beginning. Sex plays a part in any and all societies. It just complicates things in a theater of battle. No way we should go back to not having women in a warzone, as they have repeatedly proven themselves. But maybe there are correlations and lessons to be learned....

I have a handful of friends I grew up with who are gay (all females)

That being said we are put on this planet for 1 purpose,
REPRODUCTION !

It's none of my business what someone's sexual preference is unless they tell me. The gay men and women that I've had the priviledge to work with were all stellar in their performance and good company , too. I really do not understand why this is an issue other than fear.

Janet Reno and Ellen are gonna wipe out the Taliban. :hihi:
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"Couldn't the same be said if your best buddy was one of your subordinates? "

Yes, the same could be said. And that's PRECISELY why there are guidelines that suggest that folks who decide who goes in harm's way, shouldn't be too friendly with those they'd send into harm's way. I've known officres who were removed from combat command specifically because they were too chummy with the enlisted guys. If being friendly with enlisted men inhibits one's ability to lead in combat, then certainly being sexually attracted to enlisted men is even more serious.

"And many would reject that it is a 'lifestyle choice'"

True. But I've heard an awful lot of blacks say they resent that comparison. Being born homosexual may not be a choice. Acting on those impulses is a choice. Being born black involves no choice whatsoever. That's not my argument, by the way, but many people make that argument, and I think there's validity to it.

Backbeach, I can only assume you didn't read any of my posts. I am not afraid of homosexuals.

Combat command is a little different than working in an office. You simply cannot be an effective combat commander if there is any sense among your men that decisions might be based on sexual attraction. If I was gay when I was in the USMC, and I had a crush on one of my privates, I might be inclined to consistently select others for dangerous assignments. Once my men suspect that, I'm done as an effective commander.

It has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with fair, especially when life and death are on the line. If I tell a private that he has to kick down a door and secure a house, he has the right to know for certain that I'm not picking him because I want to protect the other guy in the squad that I have a crush on. It would be difficult for me to imagine that a leader could send someone into harm's way that they had feelings for. That sexual chemistry makes objectivity harder to come by. It might not make objecticity impossible, but it makes it harder. Combat is hard enough without needlessly making it harder, just for the sake of political correctness.

"Then Things have changed since I was in."

Article 134 of the Uniform Code OF Military Justice has been used to prosecute adultery. I don't know when yuo served, or how long that article has been in there. Also, there's a difference between the letter of the law, and how it's enforced, differences by branch, etc...

with eating and fishing closely following

OK, thats what I thought. However I see a scenario I presented being more likely then some unrequited love story you presented....

right...if I was a heterosexual....wait, I am a heterosexual...and I found myself in my early 20's in combat(or anywhere else for that matter) in a women only platoon and my sexual orientation oriented me toward....women.... I'm sure I'd not develop any unrequited affection for these women, I certainly wouldn't sneak any peaks and they definitely woudn't be a distraction...even if they were all lesbians......:uhuh:

seems like the same people that will tell you to give your kids birth control becuase they are going to do it any way and can't control their impulses will also tell you that 18-20 something soldiers can serve together even in the most difficult situations and their "impulses" can easily be controlled and will not affect their performance...which can mean life and death