Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda ... VT Student w/ CCW Could Have Stopped Psycho Cho
 

God, this burns my biscuits. 75 student guns were locked up at VT's campus police office on 4/16/07

30 of the 32 killed were dead by the time cops arrived. :wall: :wall: :wall:

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=10&t=42796

1000-2000 rounds per month? He ought to be able to shoot a flea off a fly's ass.

How many cops shoot that much? Anyone want to disagree with half a percent or less?

Most cops are not even good shots, some barely qualify. I know some personally who don’t even take proper care of their weapons (cleaning etc). I think I would trust my own Glock more than a police issued weapon, and yes most guys at the range can easily shoot better .BUT, that’s AT paper. You still need proper training for a real life situation. Anyone that has practiced at the range, and then gone deer hunting only to get Buck fever just before clicking the safety off will know what I mean (legs tremble ,jaws rattle, sometimes entire body shivers). Taking a HUMAN life even a Scumbag like Cho, is not as easy as u might think, most people don’t have the steel for it, again, without proper training.
Reason I am saying this, a Burglar or a mugger etc wants to stay alive, so you only wave the gun at him, and dial 911 with the other hand. This guy you would have to dispatch with extreme prejudice without any hesitation or he would put your lights out instead. But then who really knows, he did off himself before the cops got to him, so he might have done the same facing an armed student.

Sounds great but i don't think it is a wise idea. AS for 1 to 2k rounds threw his psitols he might be a great shot on paper but nobody knows how they are going to react under fire untill they go threw it. ThomT

I have been through the FIST training and I can testify that it is radically different then shooting at a paper target. The training utilizes a doctored Glock .45 that shoots compressed air and is electronically tied to a AV sytem so that you can simulate real world LE encounters. It was very unnerving to be pointing a gun at another human being even if they were on a movies screen. (all the participants are life size). I was scared to death a couple of time, cuz once you are in the situation, you forget its a training session. I don't know if I would have been able to hit that kid, but I do know I would have pulled the trigger. No FBI double taps though, I would have emptied my clip. May God gove those families some peace

i don't know about the assertion of "most cops" being bad shots.

i consider myself a decent shot and have shot alongside many LEO's over several courses. they beat the pants off of me (as they should). in one case we had a qual of 12 people, including a FL county sheriff, an Army Special Forces operator. I placed third (crappy Glock 19 w/ NY 1 trigger), but the FL Sheriff (dept issue Glock .45 ACP) beat the Army SF dude (HK USP Compact .357 Sig)!

and before you guys second guess how others would act in a similar situation, here is something to consider:

Hey, how about this useless piece of drivel that was recently circulated to professors at an institution of higher learning:

I'm gonna :yak:

They forgot one "Cross fingers, hope for the best".

I hadn't heard any stories like that. Good for Mr. Laporte.

My comments were not meant to speculate on whether or not cops are good shots, only to suggest that for many police officers, shooting people is not a routine part of the job and so they don't typically practice shooting very much. Certainly not 1000-2000 rounds per month.

Someone could cite publically available statistics about police accuracy in gun fights, but I won't.

Bassturbed when was the last time you spent anytime on a college campus. I spend eight hours a day on one and I shudder to think what could happen if the students were allow to have guns in the dorm rooms. ThomT

many years ago. i carried all the time on campus, legally.

:buds:

you need to be 21 in most states to be able to legally carry concealed.

old enough to sling a rifle and die for uncle sam, but not old enough to be trusted to protect yourself? bull$hit. :yak4:

what about professors and teaching assistants?

my sixth sense
 

says...
that this is the most important element of this whole disaster.

that being said:
getting away from all the discussion of guns and ammo for a bit...

you have to look at society and how we respond to terrorist acts..

if we all respond as a single entity ...as a group yelling out America
and kicking their ass as a team sport.....then we'll WIN

but if we... all ignore the situation and try to flee....each man for him
or herself... strategy.... then in my opinion we're all gonna loose.

when armed civilians are the watchers then society isn't so
martial law ...where every third or forth person is the police like
you see in those futuristic SCIFI flicks...
"step out of line the police come and take you away" (doors?)

Let see with all the partying and drinking and fighting that goes on on many campus you now want to throw guns into the mix. Not smart and many of the prof on todays campus wouldn't touch a gun to save there life. Bad things happen to good people is right no but is going to happen and there isn't much we can do it si called fate. ThomT

To VTBOB - let me see if I've got this right. You're saying that if you had your gun with you on campus you could have stopped this. Isn't it fair to say that "guns on campus" is how the whole problem started in the first place?

I am not naive, and I don't know all the answers, but I do know that more people with guns is NOT the answer!

No its not fair, and also not logical.
It doesnt follow any logical reasoning to solve or prevent the "whole problem" as you stated. Guns were already "banned" on campus,so how much more banned can we make them, murder is also illegal, how much more illegal can we make it so the insane will obey ?? threat of life in prison or the Death penalty obviously would not have stopped this guy.
Criminals and insane people obey no laws
So I dont follow the logic of "guns on campus" at all. Not sure how you intend to physically prevent it either, unless you are proposing Airport type of security at the Gates, do you know how much thats gonna take ?and it still would never be 100% effective + you would have to turn every University literally into a PRISON with barbed wire fences to even try to achieve it.
I do agree that THIS particular person should have been BLOCKED from PURCHASING a weapon of any kind, and this is where everyone should be focusing if we really want to try to prevent this in the future. Debating guns on campus, does little at this point, and unfortunately if these types or rampages continue to happen, we WILL need a qualified "marshall" of some kind on every class, which is also pretty nuts IMO.

Not to pick on your opinion, but what do YOU think IS a possible solution ? rather than what you feel is NOT a solution.

I don't think more guns helps matters much, in fact it's quite silly considering how often a tragic event of this magnitude really happens.

Do you really want non-police put in a situation where they have to determine not just if their own life is in danger, but if they need to use lethal force because of danger to another?

What happens when it's a violent person with a knife or other dangerous item? What are the legal ramifications to those attempting to do good, only to have made a poor decision to use lethal force and potentially not have the law on their side?

It's not reasonable to make policy based on the isolated incident.

As an aside...why anyone would carry on campus just because they could is beyond me...assuming you're not attending the U of Kabul ;)

I'm certainly not anti-gun, but I do think this whole self defence mantra is part political rhetoric or perhaps somtimes just fantasy. Yes, it certainly does happen but not enough to justify broader policy.

In the VT incident the problems appear to be the ease at which Cho was able to buy weapons after the system knew he was a wacko, and the inability of the system to find him and stop the violence once it started.

I'm not sure there's any easy fix to all of this. But sometimes these things just happen.

-spence

Not True, SOME decisions need to be made, NO action is the same as allowing it to happen again, then we are all just as complicit.
These incidents dont seem that isolated to me anymore, I dont think we need to go through the whole list of school shootings , do we .

Personally I would not carry on any campus, I dont want the responsibility, but those that are willing to accept the burden, ESP someone as brave as that professor, deserve the opportunity .

No more rethoric than the "ban all guns" mantra of the far left, which is all they seem to be able to come up with, more laws, more ridiculous paperwork for law abiding citizens. Easy, quick fix ,feel good legislation that does>>>> NOTHING.

Well we certainly agree here. A lot of people dropped the ball on this one. The only fantasy I see is that "we the people" have teams of concerned FEDERAL employees all doing their jobs to prevent sales of guns to the likes of Cho. Red flags should have gone off all over the place.
The system doesnt work properly, its just another federal job with $15/ hr clerks sitting behind a computer making decisions based on the info in front of them, it certainly aint Kirsten Vangsness approving these background checks (the criminal minds chick with all your personal info at her fingertips)

There probably is no easy fix, glad we agree on that too.
Maybe , We can start with removing the guns from the crazies, as Ive said before, we certainly don't allow people with restraining orders against them to purchase or own, why crazies ? Ahhh, back full circle to that doctor patient confidentiality thing. Where exactly is that in the constitution anyway ??

blah blah blah

1) people will live up to the responsibilty expected of them. you can trust an 18 year old cop or soldier but not a trained 21 year old college student? whatever.

2) there are many states where college students can possess and carry on campus (MA isn't one of them). they haven't had any problems.

a few decades ago, it wasn't an uncommon sight to see high-schoolers and college students openly toting firearms to SCHOOL during hunting season ("Johnny, that's a nice duck gun, now please go lock it up in your locker" says Ms. Crabapple.). are you saying that people have changed that much in such short time? there are no trustworthy people left? :devil2:

the hppa act is the new law denying anyone access to medical records.

for example ...i was trying to correct a wrong billing for hospital
charges with our health insurance provider for my wife's account
and they won't allow you access unless you get authorization even
though we've been married for 35 years. it's very enforced now.

The police are not there to protect the public at large. They are there to uphold the law. In other words, clean up the mess. This is a SCOTUS ruling. 30 of the 32 VT fatalities were dead by the time cops arrived. VT had a campus ban on concealed carry (legal under state law though). Think about this - VT wanted to promote a safe environment, but can't guarantee you of one, and then restricts you from an effective means of self-defense? Stupid.

A person armed with a knife can can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, and stick you dead in a heartbeat. Google "Tueller Drill" if you don't believe me. As part of training, I timed a gent with congestive heart failure and he managed to cover that distance in 2 seconds. Even in the Commonwealth of Mass, use of lethal force is justified on a knife-wielder. Yes, you can justifiably shoot a knife-wielder, provided you have made an effort to retreat and he is still stalking you.

The guy shouldn't have been approved for a weapons purchase. He fell through the cracks - the "system" you fault. More importantly, he picked his target with a deliberate view to inflicting the most casualties. Typically these are in victim disarmament zones. Why didn't he attack a police station instead?

Bassturbed said, "The guy shouldn't have been approved for a weapons purchase. He fell through the cracks - the "system" you fault. More importantly, he picked his target with a deliberate view to inflicting the most casualties. Typically these are in victim disarmament zones. Why didn't he attack a police station instead?[/quote]


Because he was a coward in every facet of his life, he was someone who was shamefully afraid. He knew no one would be there to stop him.

Tinman, I only ever knew one officer who couldn't shoot because he contracted a disease from the inside of a jail cell in the station he worked at that was riddle with mold. His sight was pitiful.

Other than that one officer every other one I know could shoot really well. That being said, officers are human and as such can never state unequivically what they will do in a shoot out unless of course they have allready been involved in one, or is a defective person who is dying to shoot someone to begin with.

I should have clarified that statement better, I meant ON PAPER , cause thats the only place I can SEE them shoot, wouldnt really want to see them shoot a live perp anyway. Most guys i know(I would say as high as 90%) that punch paper and do it on a regular basis are better shots than the average cop(IMO), another reason I say this, most cops shoot just enought to stay qualified with that weapon, not many really enjoy going to the range to stay sharp. And one cop I showed how to field strip his Glock, said to me " i didnt know it came apart like that", u cant make that up. It was loaded with brass shavings,had not been properly cleaned in ages. Scary.

But I will retract my statement, since its only from I have seen and obviously not indicative of all LE.

update: Loophole closure by governor
 

heard this on tv news

thats right....Virginia's Governor passed a ruling saying anyone with
mental problems doesn't get to buy guns.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/30/gun....ap/index.html

Dear God:

Why didn't you save the school children at ?.

Virginia Tech 04/16/07
Amish Country, PA
Wisconsin
Columbine High School
Moses Lake , Washington 2/2/96
Bethel , Alaska 2/19/97!
Pearl , Mississippi 10/1/97
West Paducah , Kentucky 12/1/97
Stam! p, Arkansas 12/15/97
Jonesboro , Arkansas 3/24/98
Edinboro , Pennsylvania 4/24/98
Fayetteville , Tennessee 5/19/98
Springfield , Oregon 5/21/98
Richmond , Virginia 6/15/98
Littleton , Colorado 4/20/99
Taber , Alberta , Canada 5/28/99
Conyers , Georgia 5/20/99
Deming , New Mexico 11/19/99
Fort Gibson , Oklahoma 12/6/99
Santee , California 3/ 5/01 and
El Cajon , California 3/22/01?

Sincerely,

Concerned Student

-----------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:

I am not allowed in schools.

Sincerely,

God