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Old 11-02-2013, 08:45 AM   #16
scottw
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post

There are a lot of people out there, doing incredible charitable work, but I'm assuming there's not enough voluntary charity to help everyone who needs it. I'm no expert on these things, but I wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars to help relieve the financial burden of our neighbors who weren't born as lucky as I was to be healthy.

My view on a strict libertarian is someone who believes everyone should be left to their own devices. I always found that to be self-centered.
should probably start with a pretty good definition...like most things there is a spectrum...there is in fact "libertarian socialism"..I assume a true libertarian socialist would agree that he may and is free to "reject capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, instead advocating their common or cooperative ownership and management" but not force that ideaology on others through government force..

I think you confuse "left to their own devices" with a desire to be "free" from the "initiation of force" from government....I think a libertarian would tell you that charities would benefit far more in terms of charitable works and contributions if the individual, "left to their own devices", was working more for their own benefit and those that they associate with and less an effort to support the machinations of a behemoth central government, the government that you would like to have dole out only what charity is necessary and to only those who need it has sufficiently proven itself unable to do so in any responsible or sustainable way....this concept that without government there to provide, many would be left to wallow is something that I've heard many times from our President

"President Obama today delivered an impassioned attack on what he called Republicans’ “cramped narrow conception” of liberty, during a fiery speech at a campaign fundraiser in Vermont.

Liberty is the value of individuals to have agency (control over their own actions). Different conceptions of liberty articulate the relationship of individuals to society in different ways— these conceptions relate to life under a social contract, existence in an imagined state of nature, and related to the active exercise of freedom and rights as essential to liberty. Understanding liberty involves how we imagine the individual's roles and responsibilities in society in relation to concepts of free will and determinism, which involves the larger domain of metaphysics.

Classical liberal conceptions of liberty typically consist of the freedom of individuals from outside compulsion or coercion, also known as negative liberty. This conception of liberty, which coincides with the libertarian point-of-view, suggests that people should, must, and ought to behave according to their own free will, and take responsibility for their actions, while in contrast, Social liberal conceptions of (positive liberty) liberty place an emphasis upon social structure and agency and is therefore directed toward ensuring egalitarianism.


Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal")—or, rarely, equalitarianism[1][2]—is a trend of thought that favors equality for all people. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.[3] The Cultural theory of risk holds egalitarianism as defined by (1) a negative attitude towards rules and principles, and (2) a positive attitude towards group decision-making, with fatalism termed as its opposite.[4] According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the term has two distinct definitions in modern English.[5] It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights[6] or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralisation of power . Some sources define egalitarianism as the point of view that equality reflects the natural state of humanity.

so you see the.... "positive conception of liberty"(conveniently created) is not liberty at all but socialism which is the polar opposite of "negative conception of liberty"(mis-named by the creators of the positive conception of liberty) and the two are not compatible which explains the ultimate problem that we have currently in our society....the most successful dictators on the planet historically have built their causes on the "positive conceptions of various "liberties", it's a ruse ...and it works"



Before an electrified crowd of 4500 – his largest of the campaign to date – Obama framed the 2012 campaign as a stark choice between two diametrically opposed political and economic philosophies.

“Their philosophy is simple: you’re on your own,” Obama said of the GOP.

“You’re on your own if you’re out of work, can’t find a job. Tough luck you’re on your own. You don’t have health care: That’s your problem. You’re on your own. If you’re born into poverty, lift yourself up with your own bootstraps, even if you don’t have boots. You’re on your own. They believe that’s how America is advanced,” he said.

“That’s the cramped narrow conception they have of liberty, and they are wrong,” he said. “They are wrong.”


under Obama's "warped concept of liberty"....we give government the excuse to take and dole out and grow beyond it's necessity and means as it pleases all on the assumption that individuals are incapable of taking care of themselves and those around them when it is fact proven time and again that it is government that is ill equipped to preform this task(I think you have pointed this out repeatedly)...pretty sure the Founding Fathers pointed this out too...a long time ago when the concept of libertarianism was hatched

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free")[1] is a set of related political philosophies that uphold freedom as the highest political end.[2][3] This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty,[4][5] political freedom, and voluntary association. It is the antonym to authoritarianism.[6] Different schools of libertarianism disagree over whether the state should exist and, if so, to what extent.[7] While minarchists propose a state limited in scope to preventing aggression, theft, breach of contract and fraud, anarchists advocate its complete elimination as a political system.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13] While certain libertarian currents are supportive of laissez-faire capitalism and private property rights, such as in land and natural resources, others reject capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, instead advocating their common or cooperative ownership and management[14][15][16][17] (see libertarian socialism).

In the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, libertarianism is defined as the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things.[18] Libertarian philosopher Roderick Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives.[19] The U.S. Libertarian Party promotes individual sovereignty and seeks an end to coercion, advocating a government that is limited to protecting individuals from the initiation of force.[20


btw...if you "wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars to help relieve the financial burden of our neighbors who weren't born as lucky as I was to be healthy"...that should be something that you are free to do as often as you wish(libertarian concept) but should not result in your neighbors being forced to do so(other half of the libertarian concept) and wouldn't it make more sense to give those dollars directly to a hospital or charity(libertarian concept) that doesn't have a multi, multi bazillion dollar website that doesn't work?????(evidence for the basis of libertarian concept)

Last edited by scottw; 11-02-2013 at 10:25 AM..
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