Quote:
Originally Posted by Swimmer
They need a union, because all the underachievers who attend town meetings wouldn't pay them beans if they didn't band together and negotiate en mass. And you well know as an actuary that these union members pay half of the contribution to the retirement fund, right. So its not as if the municipality pays the whole GD thing is it.
These employees (teachers not withstanding, because I dont know a thing about their contracts) were given these perks back in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, when the pay was so low, and as you know as an actuary it didn't cost much, or at least the cost was negligable, to give out more perks during negotiations, like vacation, sick time, blah blah blah.
If you want monkeys working for you, then pay them peanuts. You'll get what you deserve soon enough in the form of civil rights law suits, caused by brutal thugs who take the low paying jobs, because educated people will go elsewhere. These cops, fitefighters, teachers, all hire contractors to work on their houses, local garges to repair thier vehicles, plumbers, electricians, and so on. Cut thier pay and everyone else will suffer right down the line. Its all relative.
Oh, I forgot one thing, we all pay taxes as well and I dont like what they are and complain when I see waste in all its forms. It doesn't sound to me as if the private sector worked out as well as you would have liked.
One more thing, just a short story, several years ago two of the guys I was working iwth on the 12-8 shiftb, (when by all rights they should have been sleeping or eating a donut) were driving along and spotted a house on fire. Without hesitating they rushed into the house, got the four people out. Called the Fire Dept. and the fire department was able to save the house. Guy never said thanks, not once. Two weeks after that fire almost claimed the father's life(homeowner), his wife and two childrens lives, one of those heroic officers wrote the guy wo had the fire a parking ticket. Guy wrote a two page letter of complaint aout why he didn't deserve a ticket. He didn't get the ticket taken care of and he did know in the end it was the same officer who saved his life. I'm done ranting.
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I agree with some of what you wrote, not all...
"all the underachievers who attend town meetings wouldn't pay them beans if they didn't band together and negotiate en mass."
I disagree. I see a lot of common sense folks who feel, like me, that public servants deserve to be paid a bit less than the average citizen whom they claim to serve. In CT, we are nowhere near that equilibrium, and it's getting more unbalanced (in favor of unionized municipal workers) not better. I know this as an actuary.
"these union members pay half of the contribution to the retirement fund, right."
It varies by town here in CT. What I also know is this...with a 401(k), I put money into it. When I want to retire, I have to figure out how to live on whatever is in there. If there's not enough to live on, that's my problem.
Unionized municipal employees put some of their own money to fund the pension. If the employee contributions are not enough to fund the promised payout (which happens, oh, 100% of the time) the public has to fund the difference. Warren Buffet could not invest contributions and earn enough to pay for the insane guaranteed benefits. I know this as an actuary.
Why is that? Why is the financial security of unionized municipal workers more important to society, than the financial security of those in the private scetor?
"These employees (teachers not withstanding, because I dont know a thing about their contracts) were given these perks back in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, when the pay was so low, and as you know as an actuary it didn't cost much, or at least the cost was negligable"
Correct. Back then, the costs were controllable because of several things (more workers per retiree, retirees didn't live as long, healthcare was cheaper). The problem is, pension benefits have not changed with the costs. So the public gets stuck with a massive bill, that was promised by a politician who (1) would do anything to get the union vote, and (2) is long gone so he's no longer answerable to the public that he just screwed.
"If you want monkeys working for you, then pay them peanuts. "
Thsi is what liberals do. If I suggest that teachers compensation needs to be somehting that the public can afford to pay, you take that to mean I want them eating cat food. That's not even close to what I said, so do us all a favor and stick to what I say. Don't put extremist words in my mouth just because they are easier for you to respond to.
Also, private schools pay their teachers far less than public schools, and somehow those students do OK. I have never, not once, seen a study that shows a correlation between student performance and teacher compensation. If there was any trace of a correlation, teachers unions would be plastering it everywhere.
"Cut thier pay and everyone else will suffer right down the line. "
Wrong! 100% wrong! And here's why. Cutting their pay means that everyone else gets to keep more of their own money, which will be spent on the things you listed. If current teacher pay levels are so good for the economy, why are towns and states having to borrow outrageous sums to pay for those benefits? Why aren't tax revenues enough to pay the salaries of the unionized employees? Have you seen the debt levels of nearly every state, thanks to unfunded retirement and healthcare benefits for unionized public workers? Many towns, and a few states, are flirting with bankruptcy.
"It doesn't sound to me as if the private sector worked out as well as you would have liked."
I'm pretty comfy, let's leave it at that. You want to know more, ask and I'll tell you. I just don't like getting robbed so that public sector employees can cling to insane benefits, and I cannot imagine what the tax rates will be for my kids, if things don't change.
Nice story you told. If you want to hear my story, look at the debt levels by state, thanks to the ridiculous promises made to these people. I used to be a public servant (I was in the USMC), and I have great respect for cops, teachers, firemen (well, many of them). But the math is what it is, and it is absolutely not sustainable.
Here in CT, our tax rates are among the 3 highest in the nation, every single year. On top of that, we have about the highest avereage income. What I mean is, if the state with the highest incomes, has the highest tax rates, then that state has a TON of tax revenue. On top of that, we get hundreds of millions from the casinos. And yet our debt, measured as dollars per citizen, is the highest in the country.
There is only one possible conclusion. We had the money to live well, but we spent it very recklessly. By far, the biggest debt item is union benefits. You try telling me that there is any other conclusion. But you can't, cuz there ain't. The money is gone, the well is dry, the golden goose has been slain. Still these unions want more and more and more. It is never enough.
You can't spend what you don't have. Whatever you have, you need to spend less. I knew that even before I was an actuary. Everyone knows this, it seems, except unionized municipal employees.
I like this post. It's my opus...