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Old 10-11-2017, 08:17 PM   #233
detbuch
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
"I've listened to your arguments. They seem, to me, to be based on your emotional reactions to events"

Guilty as charged.

"a lack of trust in a free people's owning lethal things, especially things that can quickly kill in large numbers"

My lack of trust isn't entirely a figment of my imagination, is it?

I said "trust in a free people". I have said over and over what I mean by freedom as opposed to license. I suggest that the figment of your imagination isn't free people. Rather it is your lack of trust in those who are not free. Who do not respect the freedom of others, and are slaves to their sick desire of having the power to determine the life or death of others.

There are perfectly innocent people in the ground, some of whom I feel would be alive today, if such things were banned.

There are millions more in the ground, or were cremated, or were disposed of in various ways who were not able to defend themselves from their own government or from sick, armed, criminals. It would be wonderful if the world population decided to produce no more firearms or WMDs. Then we could go back to killing each other with swords, spears, arrows, clubs, either in war or peace. Mass killings would be less likely in that way. Things were better and safer then in the days when such were the weapons of choice. Notwithstanding that ancient battles often resulted in thousands or tens of thousands of death.

No, actually, things were not better then. Something else happened to make things better. Not perfect, as you say, but better--even though worse weapons have been produced and used. Maybe, in some way, because they were produced. Unfortunately, a worldwide ban on the production of guns is not yet feasible. It could begin if all governments would disarm. That's not likely soon, or ever. But armed governments ruling disarmed citizens has led to various tyrannies in history. And we have, on one hand, a chance that it might work here, but an equal, or more likely chance that it won't.

The thing that happened which made things better for the masses was their empowerment to control the governing process. If we give that process back to the rulers, as Progressives would have us do, they would have to be the angels that Madison said humans are not. I agree with Madison. And the progressive march to disarm us does not help us to maintain control of the governing process. Not at this time.


I would lose no sleep if you had such things, or if my Dad had such things. But there are small number of very sick people out there.

Yet the private property rights of the massive majority of those you can trust to own what is explicitly, constitutionally, protected against regulation, must be judged and restricted because of that small number of very sick people.

"Because some, who are not truly free but possessed by a need for power over others or are mentally deranged, will misuse lethal weapons, all others, who are free of such dangers and believe in and respect the freedom of others must be "moderated" in their desire to own various weapons. "

Correct. The same logic applies to speed limits. Some drivers are capable of driving 100 mph and never doing any damage. But some can't. We recognize that, and ratified laws to forcibly moderate all drivers, even those who aren't a danger to others.

Speeding on public roads is not constitutionally protected. Nor does it help us to control the governing process.

It has been generally accepted in our history, that the second amendment isn't absolute or limitless.

Being generally accepted is not a mark of being right or good. What is generally accepted does not even remain the same, decade to decade, or to weeks, or to days, or to hours.

The Second Amendment is not only an expressed right, not to be abridged, to own arms, it also involves a natural right to own a property. Natural rights are considered absolute, and the Second Amendment removes that particular property even further from being restricted. You can't be more absolute than that.

Now, if you want to terminate an absolute right, first begin with emotional arguments regarding extreme events. After succeeding by using that to gain some smaller victory for restriction, then chip away with appeals to fear over less extreme events which, none-the-less cause emotional distress. All the while preaching that some law, or anything else for that matter, is not absolute, not limitless, and never has been. Back that claim up with not quite parallel arguments or examples, often even with totally false parallels, and keep appealing to emotions and fears. Over time, when enough people, especially in educational, media, and political (usually party policy) places come over to your way of thinking, you can begin to marginalize your opponents, as kooks, crazies, conspiracists, extremists, or heartless, mindless supporters of stupidity and cruelty.


Not many people would support the idea of a citizen being able to buy a stealth bomber or a rail gun or a nuke.

Good one. I forgot to mention using the tactic of positing extreme hypotheticals that are improbable.

The founding fathers were onboard with the notion of limiting the rights of all of us to bring guns on the campus of the University Of Virginia. Which tells me, that they never intended the "right to keep and bear arms" to be without limits.

Sigh . . . let me try to put it in another way which might break its way into your consciousness. Probably not, but worth the discussion.

The Constitution cannot contradict itself. Its various parts work in concord. Each part is a simple microcosm regarding the expansive domain of its subject. It would be impossible, if not futile, to express every microscopic detail of intent and effect, every legalistic keyhole, and every connection to every part of the whole document. And yet it must not contradict itself.

For example, if the Constitution guarantees the right to own and bear something, and it also guarantees the right to own property, it may appear to contradict the right to bear arms, for instance, in a place whose owner bans arms from his property. It appears that, indeed, there is a limitation on bearing arms. Well . . . no, there is no contradiction. If one considers the Constitution as a whole, then it is obvious that the right to bear arms as expressed in the Second Amendment does not include your right to carry on the property of someone who does not wish you to do so. The Constitution frames the right to bear arms within the context of the whole, within the congruence of all rights and restrictions that the document grants or denies. There is no limitation on the right to bear arms in the context of the whole Constitution. It is obvious that the expressed right, if it is congruent with the right to own property, that the right to carry does not apply to violating property rights, or any other rights in the Constitution. The right to own arms is not affected or abridged by your Virginia University example. And the right to carry is not abridged by that example. The right to carry on the property whose owner bans guns there was never included, due to Constitutional congruence, in the Second Amendment.


"You, and those on "your side", say we don't "need" such things. "

Correct.

"Being reduced to "need" leaves little to be free of and free about. '

I disagree, and think you argument here is flawed. No one is suggesting that we ban everything that isn't necessary. I am suggesting we talk about banning things that (1) are not necessary, AND (2) can be used, as intended, to kill large numbers of citizens, in a small amount of time. You left out that second condition of what I would consider banning, and it's an important distinction.

Where does the federal government get the power to ban things that are not necessary? You do realize that getting the foot in the door of one type of "unnecessary" creates the precedent for banning another type. If you have paid attention to how the Supreme Court has worked to change constitutional meaning you would have seen that such method of "interpretation" has been used. The ACA is one powerful current example of using bad precedent on taxation to restrict our right in another area, health care and our right not to buy insurance and to impose draconian rules on insurance companies. And that now gives precedent, if and when the government chooses, to restrict our right not to buy anything else it wants to force us to buy.

That is a mighty power indeed. Wow . . . I'm overwhelmed by the havoc that could be wreaked, personally and economically, if government began banning "unnecessary things.

And I did not leave out the second condition of what you consider banning. I stated it in this very post to which you are responding.

And the talk about banning has been going on for a long time. The notion that we haven't had, or have not even started to have, a conversation on gun control is ridiculous. Instead of talking about not talking, how about just stating what you think can be done. About things that have been done which haven't stopped mass shootings. The worst in our history just occurred in spite of all that has been done. Several things have been suggested which most agree would not stop the shootings. There is no ban on coming up with a solution. Go for it.


"(whatever your or my "side" is)"

"My" side are those that would consider banning a small number of items in the name of public safety, "your" side, on this issue, are those who refuse. And I think you are more than smart enough to have already known that.

It sounds as if there is a discussion, but a lack of agreement. It looks like you believe that "your side" is smarter and "my side" must agree with you.

"You, or at least "your side" (whatever your or my "side" is) don't think we need to be concerned about government becoming tyrannical. (I realize that word applied to modern socialistic type government is antiquated, kind of kooky or conspiratorial.) "

In this country, I'm not that worried. And I fit happened, I fail to see how owning bump stocks can protect you from a newly-totalitarian government that can launch a Hellfire missile through my bedroom window from 1,000 miles away, and choose whether it impacts my side of the bed or my wife's side. There's a better chance that a weapons stockpile in my closet, will keep me safe from zombies, than it will from the US military. If I lived in Nicaragua, I might feel differently.

You colorfully fleshed out what I said. Thank you. But your kooky characterization is beside the point. The point of the Second Amendment (and the Constitution as a whole) is to dissuade the federal government from ever getting to that position. And if it ever arrived the war would not be as simple as you portray it. There would be those in the military who would prefer to launch hellfire missiles in the other direction. There would be those who would be willing to disperse weapons to as many civilians as was possible. If the majority of people were armed, and willing to fight, it would be difficult for the military remaining on the tyrannical side to defeat them. And there would not be enough hellfire missiles and fighter planes, etc. to wipe out a determined populace. That is the intention of the Second Amendment and the Constitution.

But if the people are not armed. And if enough of them are dependent on the government, and have been conditioned by media and schools, then, like the British with the Tories, the patriots would have a difficult time, no doubt. We are probably at such a point now where there is not enough conviction, or even belief, in constitutional principles to fight for them. And the dependence on government has gotten so large that numbers are in its favor. So the Second Amendment, what is left of it, is just one piece of resistance. The battle now is for peacefully, democratically, retaining what is left of the founding freedoms and to restore them before we quietly allow the fundamental transformation to become the law (indeterminate as it will be) of the land.

That is a conversation some, many, are not willing, interested in, or capable of having.


"If you wish to restrict the vast majority of common citizens in their right to arms"

I am confident that the data shows that the overwhelming majority of citizens have exactly zero interest in gun stocks and high capacity magazines. And as I have said, I feel their "right" to own such things, is a matter of opinion, rather than a constitutional certainty.

The overwhelming majority of citizens have exactly zero interest in many things. That doesn't discount the interest of the small number who are interested. Nor does lack of interest in something make that thing wrong. Should there be a consensus of what are the things we have a right to own? What is your version of a constitutional certainty other than and if all rights are limited?

"Is the power of the people to resist tyrannical government reasonable?"

Yes. And in our country, the courts (and the constitution) give us all kinds of protection against tyranny. A couple of rifles in my basement, provide very little protection against tyranny. The feds can kill us all if they wanted, and there would be precious little we can do about it, armed or unarmed. If you want to convince me that I'm safer from tyranny if I get my Dad's Marlin .22 and keep it under my bed, well, that makes exactly zero sense to me.

If all constitutional rights are limited and can be "interpreted" as needing further restrictions, what are all these kinds of protection against tyranny that the courts and Constitution give us? You have not seen court decisions that restrict freedoms? Have you seen an end to the plethora of federal restrictions, or have you seen the continuation, compounding, and expanding of various restrictions? Has the Progressive drive to restrict and transform stopped at some midway point, or does it continue to "improve" its restrictions with even more? Do you see a trajectory, as Spence might put it, in the direction of totally changing or eliminating that which is initially restricted with seemingly, as you say, very little given up in return?

"Democracy is rule by the majority. Essentially, in its most negative state, it is mob rule"

Correct. Which is why we don't have that, we have a Republic, which is restricted by the Constitution.

The republic is not restricted by the Constitution. The republican form of government is guaranteed against becoming a democracy or a dictatorship of any kind. The Constitution, as originally composed, restricts the federal government from transforming us from a republic into a centralized form of all powerful government. As it is progressively and incrementally being "interpreted," rather than restricting the federal government from becoming omnipotent, it encourages it in that direction. Trump, if nothing else, needs to be able to nominate originalist textualists who get appointed to the court. That's another fragile protection available, if realized, to reverse the Progressive direction.


I want to discuss banning the weapons of war. I am not going to be persuaded against having that conversation, because of your elegantly-worded fears that it would lead to cultural, economic, historical ruin of our nation.

If I were to persuade you against having a conversation, I wouldn't be having this conversation. Somehow, it is you that is expressing some fear, or discomfort of this conversation. I don't fear that your conversation would lead to what you say I fear. Why do you imply, again, that no-one wants to discuss your opinions, that you should shut up? Do you prefer that I shut up?

Every criminal law on the books, restricts the choices that we can make. In my opinion, it would be a good idea to increase the restrictions, or further decrease liberty if that's how you prefer to frame it, if even one life can be saved, and very little (in my opinion, obviously many disagree) is given up in return.

We can probably put this to bed, until the next one.
Criminal law and Constitutional law are different things. Among other differences, the main one is that criminal law limits the people, and constitutional law limits the government, especially the federal government. And you do it again. You use one type of law as a transferrable example of how to impose another type. There is no confluence between criminal law and constitutional law. You cannot rightly use criminal law as a precedent for constitutional law.

Last edited by detbuch; 10-11-2017 at 09:01 PM..
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