anyone ever make their own Tins? - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Diggin Jiggin · 10-20-2006, 11:39 AM

I have some ideas of tins I'd like to try to make for the canal along the lines of some of my dad's old lead drails. I know in the ditch the lead would not hold up so I was thinking Tin may hold up better but I don't know much about tin except that its supposed to melt around the same temp as lead and hold up better.

Anybody work with it before? Where would I look for tin to experiment with? Also, any idea if its cheap or expensive compared to lead?

jkswimmer · 10-20-2006, 12:04 PM

I have also thought of making moulds to pour tin lures. My research has found that tin is hard to comeby, it is expensive(1.00+/lb)and making a mould is labor and time intensive.

zacs · 10-20-2006, 12:42 PM

i don't think you use pure tin, you use an alloy of tin and lead, and maybe something else it you are a real alchemist.

Some day i really want to develop my own tin. Tins are my favorite thing to trow.

Fishpart · 10-20-2006, 02:47 PM

Try some Silvabrite 100 lead free solder. Mostly Tin with a little Copper and a tiny bit of Silver. Could also try Silvabrite 973...97% Tin, 3% copper. I wouldnt expect them to be strong enough to be a lure without a wire form like they recommend in the Do-It catalog.

Diamond Tackle · 10-20-2006, 03:36 PM

Tin melts at approx 449 F (lead at 621+)
yes, its pretty expensive at approx $5 per LB right now(and thats in larger quantities).
It is a pleasure to work with in Gravity molds(hand molds) as it will shine right out of the mold, but there may be some voids when cast that way. Production is all spin cast.
It can be polished repeatedly to bring back the shine & then remelted and recast unlimited times.
Weighs 60% of what Lead weighs (in volume).
Copper makes tin much harder. Tin for fishing should have no more than 1% copper. Silver is good stuff and adds shine, but very expensive also.
If you are mixing lead and tin, just be aware that you can not UNmix it later. Its not as if the tin will float to the top since its lighter. The new lower temp Alloy once in SOLUTION can can not be seperated , at least not without sophisticated equipment.
It is a LOT of fun to work with, and you CAN melt it in small quantities right on the kitchen stove if you want, IF its lead free. It wont hurt you the way lead can. But use a vent anyway to be safe, and dont spill it, 459F is still very hot.

zacs · 10-20-2006, 04:08 PM

wow. good stuf!

A couple of questions.

- why would one want to separate the tin and lead once combined?
- are there 'pre-mixed' alloys you can buy all ready or do you have to mix your own?
- what temp does the copper melt at?

Thanks a million

Zac

jkswimmer · 10-20-2006, 04:55 PM

Copper melts at 1083C

Diamond Tackle · 10-20-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zacs

wow. good stuf!

A couple of questions.

- why would one want to separate the tin and lead once combined?
- are there 'pre-mixed' alloys you can buy all ready or do you have to mix your own?
- what temp does the copper melt at?

Thanks a million

Zac

good questions

-seperate? , i guess normally you would not need to, just that if you melt a large batch of it, you are comitted, its no longer lead free and never will be. I am very careful not to ever get the 2 mixed together (to meet Californias strict Prop 65 laws) so I guess thats where that comes from. In other words if I get lead into a large pot of Tin, its now no longer Lead Free Tin, periond. even a bb size is enough to "contaminate" the pot.

-yes Im sure you can buy 6/40 blend of tin lead or whatever Alloy you desire, mixing it is ok too, just make sure you use a good flux to blend it all together nicely. only thing is to make sure you use LEAD, not tire weights which had many tramp(unknown) metals, these can greatly HARDEN the finished product. In fact Antimony will really harden it, so much so that it may become very brittle, whereas tin bends easily

-Copper melts? I dunno, i can look it up i guess.
I think your question is how does it get into an alloy if its melting point is obviously HIGHER than the Tin at 459 F ?
great question, I dont have the answer, same way I cant explain how SALT which melts at about 1400 F gets into salt water. Thats why they say its in Solution, not Melted . And it will just as readily Crystalize right out of solution too, just like Rock Candy, or salt crystals.

Diggin Jiggin · 10-20-2006, 05:22 PM

Tinman, thanks you've been very helpful. I'm not sure how far I'll get with this but atleast I have a place to start. I'll start making the shapes I want and then make a mold from that. I can get some of the solder like Fishpart mentioned and see how it all works and then if its something I want to persue I can try and find some bulk tin.

I saw some on the net for like 8$a lb from a place in cranston RI. 8$ is kind of steep but 5 or 10 lbs would last a long time. If I make 3 - oz lures out of a pound its still somewhat reasonable. When you add up what we pay for wood,wire,paint,epoxy, when building a plug, the tin comes out much cheaper and I wont have to deal with epoxy

. Plus I'd get to fish the tin everyday in the canal.

Jigman · 10-20-2006, 06:19 PM

Bondo, yeah the stuff you use to patch your cars with, can be used to make molds. You'll never use these for production (they'll start to deteriorate before you make enough), but good for doing a few for yourself.

Jigman

thefishingfreak · 10-20-2006, 06:26 PM

yeah ditto..
bondo...
you can cast exact copies of "stuff " too

Diggin Jiggin · 10-20-2006, 06:56 PM

I'll give the bondo a shot, I was thinking I could make a mold out of plaster, I'll do some experimenting and see what I like and how they hold up.

And beyond my plug bag I've got absolutely zero interest in production.

thefishingfreak · 10-20-2006, 06:59 PM

lemmie see if i can dig up some mold pics i made..

Redsoxticket · 10-20-2006, 07:04 PM

There are mold makers in RI that no longer make molds because there is no work. I bet you can easily find someone to cast you a production mold.

NEXT2NUN · 10-20-2006, 07:47 PM

DJ don't waste yout time with plaster. If you don't get all the moisture out it will steam up when you put the tin in and fall apart. I spent a lot of time on a mold a few years ago for zero results. Try Bondo it will be a lot faster. I'm curious as to how long a bondo mold will last.

Fishpart · 10-21-2006, 06:27 AM

The different metals get alloyed in a foundry where you melt the different metals together usually above the melting point of the metal with the highest melting point. Interestingly enough, once the metals are combined in solution, the melting point of the alloy is something completely different.

To seperate them, they need to be refined so be careful of contamination..

Diamond Tackle · 10-21-2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishpart

The different metals get alloyed in a foundry where you melt the different metals together usually above the melting point of the metal with the highest melting point. Interestingly enough, once the metals are combined in solution, the melting point of the alloy is something completely different.

To seperate them, they need to be refined so be careful of contamination..

Yes ,when youre speaking about a 60/40 blend for example this maye be True, the exception though would be the small quantities of copper or SILVER for example which have much higher melting points, those are added as a POWDER (I think) , which is how they can be put into solution. I dont think they bring the entire pot to the melt point of silver or copper. I dont know the exact process because the industry is pretty secretive about how they create their alloys. Ive seen pictrures of he labs where they do their testing, but not many people are allowed in.

Fishpart · 10-21-2006, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinman

the industry is pretty secretive about how they create their alloys. Ive seen pictrures of he labs where they do their testing, but not many people are allowed in.

gone fishin · 10-21-2006, 08:37 PM

I have been using bondo molds for a long time and have good luck with the quantities I want to make. It is cheap and I found that it is best to make a couple of molds of the same jig.
The thing that destroys bondo is having your lead too hot and pouring them too quickly. If you are heating the lead in a pouring pot, you can controll the heat and using more than one mold you give it a chance to cool some.

Also -- when you make the molds be sure to soot the insides with a candle before using Them. This is a very important step many do not pay any attention to. It will allow the moulten metal to flow and fill the mold.

I have found that using anything but lead is a waste of time and effort. If you are making jigs for the ditch, you need the weight. I buy pure lead from the plumbing supply house and suppliment it with scrounged tire weights. Works pissa.
Just remember -- do not work indoors, wear a mask that will filter out the deadly fumes