Army shoots live pigs for medical drill - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

spence · 07-18-2008, 07:36 PM

I'm never one to defend PETA, and I understand the Army's position, but I find this to be particulary revolting behavior by our government.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25735344/

-spence

likwid · 07-18-2008, 07:39 PM

Uhm.

Send them to Baltimore, they can see real gun shot wounds on real humans first hand.

spence · 07-18-2008, 07:43 PM

I've spoken with many medics and they will indeed take them to trauma centers to get a good view of reality as part of their training. More power to them, they certainly are witness to some %$%$%$%$ that would make my innards turn.

I think the issue here is how to "treat" the wound, which is a bit ironic as I'm sure none of the pigs live

-spence

striperman36 · 07-18-2008, 07:46 PM

exactly, any major inner city er would give military triage units all the projecticle and ied trauma they could handle

MAC · 07-18-2008, 07:46 PM

They have been using live animals for many years. It used to be goats. Douse head in gasoline and light it. Put out flames, break bones, a bullet hole or 2. And usually disembowelment.

If the animal died in the first 2 hours the instructors knew they did too much to the goat. If it lived past 2 hours it had to be kept alive for 22 more hours or the testee would fail.

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

spence · 07-18-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

The issue isn't expense, it's about conscience.

Most slaughterhouses have been designed and are now regulated to minimize the suffering of the animal, and we have animal cruelty laws to keep people from causing suffering to animals in other ways.

This seems to say that the good of the Army is more important than our own laws, which to me doesn't make any sense.

-spence

GattaFish · 07-18-2008, 08:06 PM

Not trying to be disagreeable or look for an argument,,, JMHO

I don't care if they shoot hundreds of pigs or PETA people,,, If it trains them to save the lives of our troops there should be no expense spared,,,,

I am not trying to be a careless jerk,,, just talking from the standpoint of a wounded serviceman's son.

MotoXcowboy · 07-18-2008, 08:11 PM

I agree w/ the inner cities. plenty of trauma there.. Also not a PETA guy but heres an idea...shoot all the wackos. for example the 20something year old guy that was just in the news for raping that 2yr old girl. use those mtfers as experiments. rid the world of useless people and maybe, just maybe it will scare/deter some of them from doing stupid s%^&!

MAC · 07-18-2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GattaFish

Not trying to be disagreeable or look for an argument,,, JMHO

I don't care if they shoot hundreds of pigs or PETA people,,, If it trains them to save the lives of our troops there should be no expense spared,,,,

I am not trying to be a careless jerk,,, just talking from the standpoint of a wounded serviceman's son.

That's how I see it as well. I am not seeing this from a monetary standpoint.

One of the members in our unit re enlisted for SF back in 1980. He wanted to be a medic on a team. The above description was the test he had to pass. (He passed)

The triage route in a hospital isn't the same. Service tests are conducted in simulated battlefield conditions. After the SM passes the test the goat is put down. Not sure if they are eaten or not.

likwid · 07-18-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC

Would you rather they trained and tested on humans? To me goat is pretty cheap compared to one of our soldiers lives.

Considering a goat bleating or whatever doesn't prepare you for the horrific screams of a human in severe pain? Yeah actually I do prefer them working on humans and knowing if they're gonna freeze up or not.

Quick chat with a buddy of mine who's an ex navy medic, he says "goat lab" did help, but at the same time, doing ride alongs also helps tremendously. You really don't know how you will react to a human until you have it in your face.

MAC · 07-18-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by likwid

Considering a goat bleating or whatever doesn't prepare you for the horrific screams of a human in severe pain? Yeah actually I do prefer them working on humans and knowing if they're gonna freeze up or not.

From what he told is after he graduated it was no picnic. Anyone who takes that course and passes most likely won't "freeze up". The trainees are watched very closely during the test. And the trainers are some of the best in the business.

likwid · 07-18-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC

From what he told is after he graduated it was no picnic. Anyone who takes that course and passes most likely won't "freeze up". The trainees are watched very closely during the test. And the trainers are some of the best in the business.

WEMT you do a million and one mocks.
You do ride alongs.
You still never know how you're going to react until its your turn to do the work.

MAC · 07-18-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by likwid

WEMT you do a million and one mocks.
You do ride alongs.
You still never know how you're going to react until its your turn to do the work.

True, But in a ride along the medic needs to get the patient to the hospital and then the hospital takes over. An hour or so maybe?

The goats had to be kept alive for 24 hours. Not an easy task. The trainers know what they can do to the goats and not have them die too quickly. Thus the 2 hour window.

likwid · 07-18-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC

True, But in a ride along the medic needs to get the patient to the hospital and then the hospital takes over. An hour or so maybe?

Really depends on the training. WEMT's are expected to be able to do what a normal EMT can do without the ambulance or extended equipment.

Quote:

The goats had to be kept alive for 24 hours. Not an easy task. The trainers know what they can do to the goats and not have them die too quickly. Thus the 2 hour window.

Get another goat.

teaser · 07-18-2008, 11:08 PM

I say save the goats and pigs, let's just shoot the rag heads and treat them as the experiment.

Keep them alive and kicking and screaming for the experience then just put them down after 24 hours.

fishaholic18 · 07-19-2008, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teaser

I say save the goats and pigs, let's just shoot the rag heads and treat them as the experiment.

Keep them alive and kicking and screaming for the experience then just put them down after 24 hours.

spence · 07-19-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teaser

I say save the goats and pigs, let's just shoot the rag heads and treat them as the experiment.

Keep them alive and kicking and screaming for the experience then just put them down after 24 hours.

I hadn't considered bigotry as an option, but if the shoe fits.

-spence

Flaptail · 07-19-2008, 01:04 PM

A big pit with a spit over it and porky rolling slowly over it for hours just out of the flames reach and I can smell the porky goodness just dripping juices into the fire. Crispy skin and cheek meat, yum!

likwid · 07-19-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spence

I hadn't considered bigotry as an option, but if the shoe fits.

-spence

Oh look! He even has a buddy in agreement! Shocker on that one!

Nebe · 07-19-2008, 05:25 PM

goat control..

spence · 07-19-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flaptail

A big pit with a spit over it and porky rolling slowly over it for hours just out of the flames reach and I can smell the porky goodness just dripping juices into the fire. Crispy skin and cheek meat, yum!

I'm a lover of pork fat...that's not the issue in question.

-spence

MotoXcowboy · 07-20-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebe

goat control..

gotta be a .50cal...?

Nebe · 07-21-2008, 07:25 AM

probably-

wheresmy50 · 07-21-2008, 11:15 AM

Yes, the need of the United States to care for Her wounded superseeds the need of a pig to die slightly more humanely than it would have died had it been processed for food.

likwid · 07-21-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoXcowboy

gotta be a .50cal...?

Bigger than that.

EarnedStripes44 · 07-21-2008, 01:17 PM

I had pork loin in a green chili sauce complimented by a nice helping of pinto beans for lunch. Now I am airing out...and I aint talking about a tech 9.

ThrowingTimber · 07-21-2008, 01:34 PM

barret 50 cal. for all you tofu eating hippies.

Spence enemies have no conscious.

My nephew is currently doing 36 and 72 hour shifts learning as much as possible to keep our men and women safe (army Medic). If a few pigs have to die so be it, to echo mac better than any of our men and women.

spence · 07-21-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheresmy50

Yes, the need of the United States to care for Her wounded superseeds the need of a pig to die slightly more humanely than it would have died had it been processed for food.

Yea, at IBP back home they process the hogs with random gunfire then keep them alive and kicking

Meat packing is very scientific these days, less suffering = better product.

And Timber, this is one of those slippery slope arguments and there are other methods to get the job done.

-spence

keeperreaper · 07-21-2008, 01:57 PM

So lets see take a goat's life to help save a US serviceman's life..........
this is a no brainer. Any training that helps our soldiers is a good thing.

spence · 07-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThrowingTimber

Spence enemies have no conscious.

So we shouldn't either? Every time I hear rhetoric like this it makes me think they might be winning.

By that measure we should have just used the GITMO detainees for medical training.

-spence