Solar power- Vivint Solar

[redlite]

So we are meeting with a rep from vivant solar today about putting solar panels on our house. They already did site inspection and calculations and appears we qualify
I did a search on here about "free" solar power and agreements and found some enlightening info but it was from 3 years ago
Anyone have any recent input, questions, concerns about it???
They say we get all equipment for "free" sign 20 yr "lease" agreement
Is this good deal? Problems?
Thanks for input

[Fly Rod]

A person where I have coffee in the morning just had it installed.
What I did not know is there R two types, one that uses about 30-35 gallons of water a day and is discharged back into the sewer system and refilled. They opted for the type that does not run on water. I would say U really want to ask questions.

Be careful nothing in this world is free.

Who recieves the money back from the grid when the electrity is sold back to electric company, homeowner or that company?

[zimmy]

I have a friend who has company owned panels and lease and looked into it for my house. My friend uses Solar City and has had no complaints. I ended up not doing it since we knew we would probably move. Real estate types told me that panels themselves are not typically a negative for potential buyers, but if under a lease, you need to find buyers who will agree to pick up the lease. We ended up moving so I am glad we held off on it. After a few years of research and discussion, we came to the conclusion that we will put them on the new house when we need to replace the roof in a few years. We are going to buy them if we have the money on hand. The long term money saving is higher and we wouldn't be tied to the company if we need/want to sell for some reason. Another thing to mention is that one of the companies who came to look recommended that we focus on solar hot water for our particular situation after they estimated that 60% of our electric bill was for hot water. The hot water system gave a big return on investment.

[wdmso]

http://www.bbb.org/blog/2012/06/dont...m-this-summer/

from what i understand the Company get the tax break from the Government
in some case's you can get a low interest loan for the same monthly you'll pay the solar company and any residual power you can sell back I assume for a credit towards your next bill . for me it sounds to easy.. let us know which way you go

[beamie]

How old is your roof?

What happens when you need a reroof. Who pays for the dismounting and remounting of panels? Or if there is just a simple leak because of the install. Something to think about.

[rickhern]

Originally Posted by beamie

How old is your roof?

What happens when you need a reroof. Who pays for the dismounting and remounting of panels? Or if there is just a simple leak because of the install. Something to think about.

With SolarCity, they want the roof generally less than 15 years old. They have a $2MM insurance policy against leakage or other damage from the system. If you need a reroof, they charge a flat $500 to remove and reinstall the panels.

[Back Beach]

Mike,

Research the purchase versus "free" approaches. We put 150 "free" panels on the maintenance facility last year. A wise man stopped by my shop after the install and mentioned purchasing the panels outright will pay you back in 5 years or so due to the fact you receive a higher rate of return if you own the panels.

Getting the panels "free" simply means the company selling you the panels takes half the subsidy and gives you half. If you own the panels outright you receive the full rate. They're expensive but a better long term Investment if you own them as opposed to leasing or getting them for "free."

[bassballer]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

Mike,

Research the purchase versus "free" approaches. We put 150 "free" panels on the maintenance facility last year. A wise man stopped by my shop after the install and mentioned purchasing the panels outright will pay you back in 5 years or so due to the fact you receive a higher rate of return if you own the panels.

Getting the panels "free" simply means the company selling you the panels takes half the subsidy and gives you half. If you own the panels outright you receive the full rate. They're expensive but a better long term Investment if you own them as opposed to leasing or getting them for "free."

Being in the business i agree with Mike. This is the way to go. Depending on different factors you could be making money on the grid in a few years. Its a big initial investment but worth it in the long run.

[rickhern]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

Mike,

Research the purchase versus "free" approaches. We put 150 "free" panels on the maintenance facility last year. A wise man stopped by my shop after the install and mentioned purchasing the panels outright will pay you back in 5 years or so due to the fact you receive a higher rate of return if you own the panels.

Getting the panels "free" simply means the company selling you the panels takes half the subsidy and gives you half. If you own the panels outright you receive the full rate. They're expensive but a better long term Investment if you own them as opposed to leasing or getting them for "free."

Agreed, yet the vast majority of new systems are leases or PPA's. The purchase option takes a little more effort, securing financing, etc.., but the payoff is much better. Most people take the easy way out(in everything).

[ivanputski]

Im a natural born skeptic. Leasing solar panels seems like signing up for a time share in the 80's

( no disrespect to those that lease solar panels)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[rickhern]

I rep SolarCity and the plans being offered to day are pretty amazing. If you can secure financing(there are dedicated solar loans available) and have the income to support the 30% tax credit, the purchase is the way to go. Most companies will offer a 20 year(or londer) warranty on the equipment.

If you decide to "Lease", look at a PPA vs a traditional lease. With a PPA(Power Puchase Agreement) you agree to purchase the electricity that the panels produce. If the panels break or do not produce what they expected, you are not on the hook. Either way can work out very well.

If you want a second opinion, call SolarCity or send me an email with your 12 mth usage and I will have someone put together a proposal for you.

[beamie]

Watching the American Forces Network AFN often see a cllip from Nellis AFB where they boast of a 72,000 panel solar array that saves 25% of the annual electical cost or a bit over 1 millions dollars a year.

THE COST OF THE PROJECT WAS ABOUT 107MIL........who signed off on this project

[rickhern]

Originally Posted by ivanputski

Im a natural born skeptic. Leasing solar panels seems like signing up for a time share in the 80's

( no disrespect to those that lease solar panels)
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

How so?

Zero cost to the consumer and a reduced electricity bill, with the added benefit of reducing your carbon footprint.

[Back Beach]

Here's an analogy:

A guy wants to go striper fishing for money but can't afford to buy eels. The bait store owner offers the fisherman "free" eels but there is an exception ...the fishermen must split the profits with the bait shop 50-50.
Next morning the fisherman sells $500 worth of fish but has to give the bait shop $250, thus cutting his profit in half. Had the fisherman put up his own $25 bucks for bait instead of borrowing it from the bait shop his profit would've been $475.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

A couple observations
1 They look like hell,no matter how you slice it
2 I can not imagine they do anything except lower the value of your home.
I simply would not put them on my home because I would hate to look at them when I come home.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

A couple observations
1 They look like hell,no matter how you slice it
2 I can not imagine they do anything except lower the value of your home.
I simply would not put them on my home because I would hate to look at them when I come home.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

All of those are opinion based. I personally wouldn't care if someone else thinks they look bad. I think raised ranches are ugly and that doesn't stop people from building them. I don't don't think asphalt shingles look good, yet I don't mind solar panels. My opinion of aesthetics are pretty irrelevant to redlites decision.

As far as home value, owned solar panels will almost always increase the value of the home, unless the inverter is ancient. The purchasers utility costs will be substantially lower and that is appealing to many people. Most cases the return on investment will be about 10 years. The life of the inverter is typically around 20 years. That is 10 years free electricity.

[gannetgil]

I am a solar consultant with Real Goods Solar Energy when I'm not surf casting.
I would be glad to stop by and give you a free estimate for a solar panel system.
Your roof should have southern exposure with no shading.
Rhode Island has renewable energy incentives which can reduce your cost by up to 50%.
We also offer a veteran's rebate of $500.
Gil Bell
gannetgil@cox.net

[oldroe]

Does your house insurance rates go up.

[ivanputski]

What is the average total purchase price for solar panels, install, the whole package? ( I know there is no "average", just like there is no "best" fishing rod... but give me a ball park) my home is roughly 3000 sq. feet with a very large south facing roof.

I would consider purchasing... not interested in leasing at all.

[Fly Rod]

???????????????????

What does it cost the homeowner per month for that 20 year lease, so the one or two of U in the business of selling the system tell cost if any ?

I understand that the system is supposedly "FREE", there R in most every state incentives(rebates)but then there is the lease.

Backbeach that is a great analogy...I would go for owning....Y let someone else reap the profit....I do not C where it would be hard to get a loan if U R not over mortgaged, an equity loan maybe.

Being in the real estate business do not be fooled that it increases the value of property....buyer's especially the millennials(generation X) expect more for their monies...just because U put a 40 thou kitchen in the home that U would get 50-60 thou more may not be true

[Mr. Sandman]

I have been reading a lot about this and the lease seems like a better deal for the solar company then you. You don't save that much by leasing.

Buying can range from 20-50K depending on how extensive the install.
The tax break is probably the best part of the deal. It is doubtful you will produce the bulk of your power needs here, but it will take some sting out of your bill if you invest 30K upfront...so is it really worth it? Also, they are going to change the rate at which they buy back power. They have been buying back power at the same rate they charge you but there is a lot of monitoring and fixed cost equipment which belongs to the power company which needs to be maintained. Now that everyone one is jumping on this "free" bandwagon the power company is going to pass on some cost of equipment and upkeep to you, the "local power provider". All I am saying is don't think that the rate the power company is paying today will be the same in the future...they will be paying a lot less to buy it from you then when you buy it from them. I have seen some numbers and they are shockingly low and people are fighting it, but it will change. So the pay-back will be more.

Also I think they reduce the value of your home. They are kind of ugly, and they are a time bomb of sorts, they will be obsolete before they expire and they will need to come off.

I have seen some shingles that produce power but they are not as efficient and are a bit more costly but they look much nicer.

I am holding off. It is not like it will eliminate my bill. I use about 1500 mwh/ month on average with peak demand of 2100 or so in the summer. The number of panels I need exceeds my southern facing roof space. Lastly, I think given our latitude I don't think there is a great pay off up here. Yeah you can generate some power but you are not going to pay for any big part of it in the winter without covering your entire yard.


IMO if they didn't have the tax break there would be no point whatsoever but the tax break makes it somewhat appealing.

[stripermaineiac]

I see a lot of these set up in rows on the ground up here so why put it on your roof in the ist place? My son is in this business on the comercial provider end an he keeps telling me the bang for the buck just isn't there yet. Wait a while till the bugs are worked out of it an they stop fighting over the buy back issue and rates.

[PRBuzz]

I bought my panels outright about 6-7 yrs ago, this leasing thing wasn't an option back then. I have a system rated at 3.45KW (30 panels) and on average produces about 25-30% of my electrical
needs. Size of panels and efficiency have increased so # of panels is meaningless. I produce up to 55-60% of my needs mid-summer and 5-8% during late Nov- early Jan. I also actively clear off
the snow, you could loose days of production if you wait for snow to melt off.

I have perfect southerly exposure and little to no tree shade impact.

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Nebe]

Do you use LED lighting Phil?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[PRBuzz]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Do you use LED lighting Phil?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yes I have some LED/CFL but having a hot tub (12 months ) and central A/C (summer) are big consumers of electrons. I ave about 1600KWH/month.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[PRBuzz]

Followed the system production monthly for the 1st 4 years, now it just works...

http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...53&postcount=4

[redlite]

so this is the outcome from the meeting. It is long but worth the read based on our situation so may be beneficial to anyone considering it as well. I did a lot of research on solar power especially this particular company before hand so i was informed as possible on positives and especially negatives especially from better business bureau . it bounces around a bit to try and address some of mine as well as the valued input from here so please bear with me.

We have a 9 yr old pretty efficient 2100 sq foot colonial. city gas heat and hot water. 2 central ac units. Our house faces due west. I plan on being buried in the back yard so issues with resale should not be encountered.

Goal would be to save money on current energy bill ( electric bill is usually about $200/ month now. Don't really care much about saving environment aspect. sorry. cold and thoughtless i guess.

The way it works with this particular company, u lease the solar panels from them for 20 years. In other words they put em on your roof for free, and you sign a 20 year power purchase agreement (PPA) to purchase solar power produced from the panels. All excess power not being used is sold bak to the grid which the solar company gets. in the mean time our meter runs backwards creating a pot which we then use when it gets dark out. After we have consumed our "saved" power we need to purchase power from the grid at the going rate.

Now for the numbers. Yes the company gets all the tax breaks/ incentives/ rebates and the income from the power sold back to the grid. We get the panels and service for 20 years at no charge.

At the end of each month if we use less power than sold back to the grid we get a check.

We are currently paying Nstar 19.6cents/ kw our initial solar rate is 10.5 cents/ kw locked in for 2 years then no more than 2.9% higher each year.

Power rates only go up and we have to buy our power from somewhere.

If a new roof is needed (Ours is 8 years old) it costs us $500 to have them come take them down until roof is done and they put them back up.

As for looks, solar panels have come a long way in design. they are very thin and less obtrusive to the eye. fortunately we will be able to generate 97% of the power we CURRENTLY use from panels only on the top back of our house. The only way you would even know they are there is if i told you as you can't see them as we have a walk out finished basement and from no where in the yard can you see the back roof so that eliminates the issue of appearance In the future if our energy consumption increases (as i expect it will as the kids get older) we still can add them on to the back of the garage as well.again, you won't see them.

Now here is where I feel that a lot of the arguments of leasing versus purchase are extremely debatable. Yes we may see a faster return on savings and receive all the tax benefits/ rebates and what not but the numbers to me don't add up and this is why.
To outright purchase and install the proposed system would cost us almost 20k. Now here is why I feel leasing them is a better deal despite all this. They monitor, maintain, and service the panels to ensure they are producing maximum energy. if they are not and there is a problem, they come and fix and deal with it on their dime.
Now the biggest benefit I see to leasing versus purchase is that as technology improves and better panels come out, they come and replace them with the new technology at no cost or lease renewal like happens with your "free" cell phone upgrades where you have to resign a new agreement. If we bought the panels outright we run the risk of them breaking, not functioning properly, or being obsolete and outdated in 5 or 10 years and having to deal with them.

So the bottom line is i think we are gonna move ahead with it.
By leasing them we are saving money immediately, they don't disrupt the appearance of our house, and by leasing we will always have the most efficient, up to date system at no cost.

[Fly Rod]

redlite...thanx for the info.....

[rickhern]

Originally Posted by redlite

so this is the outcome from the meeting. It is long but worth the read based on our situation so may be beneficial to anyone considering it as well. I did a lot of research on solar power especially this particular company before hand so i was informed as possible on positives and especially negatives especially from better business bureau . it bounces around a bit to try and address some of mine as well as the valued input from here so please bear with me.

We have a 9 yr old pretty efficient 2100 sq foot colonial. city gas heat and hot water. 2 central ac units. Our house faces due west. I plan on being buried in the back yard so issues with resale should not be encountered.

Goal would be to save money on current energy bill ( electric bill is usually about $200/ month now. Don't really care much about saving environment aspect. sorry. cold and thoughtless i guess.

The way it works with this particular company, u lease the solar panels from them for 20 years. In other words they put em on your roof for free, and you sign a 20 year power purchase agreement (PPA) to purchase solar power produced from the panels. All excess power not being used is sold bak to the grid which the solar company gets. in the mean time our meter runs backwards creating a pot which we then use when it gets dark out. After we have consumed our "saved" power we need to purchase power from the grid at the going rate.

Now for the numbers. Yes the company gets all the tax breaks/ incentives/ rebates and the income from the power sold back to the grid. We get the panels and service for 20 years at no charge.

At the end of each month if we use less power than sold back to the grid we get a check.

We are currently paying Nstar 19.6cents/ kw our initial solar rate is 10.5 cents/ kw locked in for 2 years then no more than 2.9% higher each year.

Power rates only go up and we have to buy our power from somewhere.

If a new roof is needed (Ours is 8 years old) it costs us $500 to have them come take them down until roof is done and they put them back up.

As for looks, solar panels have come a long way in design. they are very thin and less obtrusive to the eye. fortunately we will be able to generate 97% of the power we CURRENTLY use from panels only on the top back of our house. The only way you would even know they are there is if i told you as you can't see them as we have a walk out finished basement and from no where in the yard can you see the back roof so that eliminates the issue of appearance In the future if our energy consumption increases (as i expect it will as the kids get older) we still can add them on to the back of the garage as well.again, you won't see them.

Now here is where I feel that a lot of the arguments of leasing versus purchase are extremely debatable. Yes we may see a faster return on savings and receive all the tax benefits/ rebates and what not but the numbers to me don't add up and this is why.
To outright purchase and install the proposed system would cost us almost 20k. Now here is why I feel leasing them is a better deal despite all this. They monitor, maintain, and service the panels to ensure they are producing maximum energy. if they are not and there is a problem, they come and fix and deal with it on their dime.
Now the biggest benefit I see to leasing versus purchase is that as technology improves and better panels come out, they come and replace them with the new technology at no cost or lease renewal like happens with your "free" cell phone upgrades where you have to resign a new agreement. If we bought the panels outright we run the risk of them breaking, not functioning properly, or being obsolete and outdated in 5 or 10 years and having to deal with them.

So the bottom line is i think we are gonna move ahead with it.
By leasing them we are saving money immediately, they don't disrupt the appearance of our house, and by leasing we will always have the most efficient, up to date system at no cost.

Good analysis. Now, to save even more money, find an alternative power supplier because Nstar is raising its rate to just under 15/kw(supply only) effective 1/1. I am with Viridian and we have a 12.99 fixed rate for 3 years.

[Rockport24]

Good stuff Redlite

I have one friend that has these and he claims that he never has to buy power from the grid, meaning that the "pot" that you mention that is built from your meter spinning backwards is never depleted. Did the solar companhy run your consumption numbers to see if that may be true for you? If that is true, it means your entire electricity cost is the just the cost of the leased panels (which I'm guessing for you is less than the $200 per month you are paying for electricity now) and its fixed, right? Seems like a no-brainer to me!