Im gonna get in trouble but this ticked me off!!

[Skip N]

I just read an article on MSN about the Iraq soccer team thats benn playing well over in the olmpics. I guess the coach of the team got word that presdint Bush had praised the team for doing well and commented on how another country could participate in the olympics as a free country. Well apperanty this dude didnt like that an said his county is still not free and the US should basiclly get the hell out! The nerve of this A-hole....We risked so many of hour brave men freeing his country from a brutal dictotor and some members on that team dont give a rats ass. Hey guys....you wanna go back and play under saddams sons again? you know...the ones that would beat the F@%@ outta you if you lost. I dont know...this just really struck a nerve with how some of those people still dont care what we did for them. Im starting to think we should get the hell outta there and let them kill each other again if thats what makes them happy. I just dont get these people Not looking to cause more trouble! Just had to vent and maybe see what some of you guys think....Am I alone on this one for being pissed off?

[spence]

I think the important point here is that not everybody in the world views what we did as a noble act. Many Iraqi's still feel we removed Saddam for economic reasons, and the terrible job Bush has done in securing the peace hasn't helped disprove this. So far almost none of the money earmarked for rebuilding Iraq has been allocated or spent while there are still huge problems with clean water, sewage, electricity and security.

Remember too that we didn't tell the world we were going into Iraq to free them, it was to remove the urgent threat of WMD's which most of the world (including a lot of Americans) feel was based on manipulated intelligence. There is a tremendous lack of trust for the Bush Administration both there and here.

There is another opinion out there worth understanding. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be more grateful for removing Saddam, but we should be more open minded as well, otherwise we'll keep making the same mistakes.

-spence

[Skip N]

I do understand that not everything on Iraq is perfect yet (far from it at that) We are trying like hell to get the terroists outta there so we and and them dont have to worry about that anymore. Sure not all the sanitation and water is 100% yet but dont they know we are trying like hell to get things better for them. Think of all the schools and things like that we have built for them already....Im jsut wishing they were a little more grateful.If nothing else for at least trying to make thier lives better. Maybe most Iraqi's are greatful but I just happened to pick out the more negative ones... i dunno! Ragrdless of the whole WMD thing I still know that freeing these people was a great cause....just wish more iraqi people felt that way.

[afterhours]

sick and freekin tired of hearing about not finding wmds. the best intelligent agencies in the world said they had them, that's good enough for me. maybe they made a mistake( who has'nt ) or maybe they were destroyed or are still buried in the sand. we went on the worlds best intelligence. tell ya what, in any event saddam can't use them, imaginery or otherwise.

[Surfcastinglife]

the guy was complainin about a campaign ad not about the soldiers being there. what he was against was bush using iraq's soccer team as a political pedestal. sort of like "look they are there and succeding because of me so vote for me" i dont believe it was to be interpreted as his not wanting american soldiers in iraq

[Skip N]

Def sounds like he's pissed at the whole situation...heres what i read. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5795484/

[Skip N]

Regardless of the ad or not come on! If thats the least of his worries now sounds like the US did its job and brought some freedom to Iraq....Dont rip the guy who is trying to save your friggen country and its people! be thankful we helped you out!

[Skip N]

sick and freekin tired of hearing about not finding wmds. the best intelligent agencies in the world said they had them, that's good enough for me. maybe they made a mistake( who has'nt ) or maybe they were destroyed or are still buried in the sand. we went on the worlds best intelligence. tell ya what, in any event saddam can't use them, imaginery or otherwise

Right on, well said

[Surfcastinglife]

ur trusting a report by msn.com the same ppl who brought us "stump coming to boston" and "roger to the sox" where no other sports network picked up on it? if this were the case dont you think the media would've been draped all over this one? they just love rippin bush's plans and we aren't seeing much coverage of this. he did indeed say he disagreed with the campaign ad, but i am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt with being "ungrateful" with the us's presence

[Skip N]

I believe its Rueters story just carried on the MSN website. Everything I read online or ont TV is all anti Bush that its sickning...trust me, this i have picked up on! Its pretty damn obvious! Your right in the sense that im surprised CNN and all those others lefties havent jumped all over this yet and slam W with something else. Lets pull out all our forces and see how the coach likes it then! You wanna see a mess?! that will do it and he'll be begging we come back to Iraq and help em out. Thats all im saying...things in Iraq could be lots worse if we left

[spence]

Skip, what news are you watching? Kerry is getting pounded in the news over the SwiftVet ads. I think it's about run it's course but the news has been anything but liberal the past 2 weeks.

Regarding WMD. I've read a lot of the report on Iraqi intel. With what I know now I'm 100% sure the Administration misled the country to justify the war. Everybody agreed Saddam needed to be dealt with but it was the President and Vice President using the harsh rhetoric and making the false and subtle associations between Iraq and 9/11 that drove the timetable and abandoned a coalition. To this day Cheney is still spouting things that are believed by 98% of the planet to be not true.

To make it more simple. There was a right way and a wrong way to deal with Saddam. Bush did just about everything wrong possible and the cost is many more American lives and billions in taxpayer (i.e. yours and mine) money down the drain. Freedeom or no freedom for Iraqi's that fact doesn't change.

-spence

[Surfcastinglife]

things in iraq would crumble faster then the sox in game 7 if we left. we are a needed presence. whether they like it or not, at this point they are screwed without the us there. at least for now some are gonna disagree and fight it but we are needed.if the coach is one of them so be it. but i dont see the point in blasting him in the media just because he's the coach. there are thousands of insurgents, the very reason we are still in iraq. but yes i agree with you that it is enough to send you off the wall when you think that someone's son/daughter brother or sister is dying for someone who may ultimately not appreciate their selfless acts, just another example of how f'ed up people really can be

[spence]

I don't think we can let it fall apart, but doing it in the manner we have I also don't see any real improvement until we pull a lot of troops out. There is simply too much hatred for America for the insurgency to loose strength.

Another important point is that these insurgents arn't all terrorists. Many are regular Iraqi's pissed because things haven't gotten any better for them. Impatience, perhaps and it's being fueled by their neighbors. Sounds just like Lebanon to me.

What we need to do is give other countries an incentive to supply real troops (i.e. contracts), have real International oversight over military operations and get the bulk of security forces replaced by friendly Arab nations.

Speaking with people who actually live in the Middle East, countries like Syria, Pakistan etc...it's the complete and utter ARROGANCE of the Bush Administration that is screwing us. Reagan might have pissed a lot of people off with his balls, but he was never...EVER...arrogant.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

"To make it more simple. There was a right way and a wrong way to deal with Saddam. Bush did just about everything wrong possible and the cost is many more American lives and billions in taxpayer (i.e. yours and mine) money down the drain. Freedeom or no freedom for Iraqi's that fact doesn't change."

- Spence you have been spouting out like this for months. Everthing against Kerry is "sick", everything against Bush is justified. The last 3 administrations planned to get rid of Sadaam, Bush just acted on it. He HAD to, we cannot sit by while other countries blatantly disobey the UN over and over and over. We did not just attack them, we told them we were going to attack, we gave Sadaam 48 hrs to leave and then we attacked after 3 MORE UN RESOLUTIONS!!!. The WORLD needed to know that we will not be pushed around.
You cannot justify right or wrong until history takes its course. Remember, most Americans were against helping England when they were being bombed night after night by the Nazis, Churchill begged for AMerican help and Congress shot it down. I'll never know if Iraq was going to launch an attack against teh US or its neighbors, but you know what? They're not going to now, and I'm sure of it. Folks like you are too busy whining about Bush to notice all the success, how many Al Queda have been captured lately? Hows our old enemy Libya doing? Was that Iran that recently let Nuc inspectors in the country? How about that alliance with Pakistan? Think any other governments are thinking about housing terrorists? Not any more..... of course NONE of this had anything to do with Bush.

[Skip N]

RIJIMMY....You said it all bud....Saved me time typing it. Its sicking how partisian and so ani Bush some people can be. Sad if nothing else....If Micheal Moore and John Kerry say it....It must be true to these brain washed fools. Im a Bush supporter but im smart enough not to agree with everything he says. I have my own mind unlike some people

[spence]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
I'll never know if Iraq was going to launch an attack against teh US or its neighbors, but you know what? They're not going to now, and I'm sure of it. Folks like you are too busy whining about Bush to notice all the success, how many Al Queda have been captured lately? Hows our old enemy Libya doing? Was that Iran that recently let Nuc inspectors in the country? How about that alliance with Pakistan? Think any other governments are thinking about housing terrorists? Not any more..... of course NONE of this had anything to do with Bush. [/B]

But you're completely ignoring any negative to our actions. I think Bush has done a good job of capturing or killing al Qaida around the world. I also think he left Afghanistan too early to focus on Iraq.

Lybia was a political success that has been working for quite some time. A good thing for sure, but he wasn't scared into it.

Iran letting inspectors in, what news are you watching?

We have no alliance with Pakistan, we have one with Musharef. While it's worked so far, there's a big difference and it's a huge potential problem.

And yes, I think we have completely missed the ball by focusing on Iraq and not pressuring governments (Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc...) to reform.

The manner in which we have done Iraq...no International mandate, no plan for security, no plan to rebuild the country, US only contracts, bad (or manipulated) WMD intel... has done very real and great damage to our image around the world. People can say they don't care about what the world thinks, but this is a very dangerous position. It's the pulse of the world that determines how our enemies are able to behave. US policy has a direct impact on the ability of al Qaida to recruit and operate, both positive and negative.

Bush is incapable of seeing both sides. His comment the other week that "killing terrorists doesn't make more terrorists" only demonstrates a complete ignorance to how the world works.

Spouting? I lie that how about erupting

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

I'll tell ya Spence, I don't agree with you opinions but I must admit, I like ya.
At least you're thinking.

[spence]

The only reason I spout (er errupt) is to try to get others to do the same

-spence

[Fishpart]

The US never left Afganistan, the PRESS left Afganistan. We still have the better part of an Army Division there and who knows how many Spec Ops and Marines.

Iraq is a good way for the press to split the voters, Afganistan is not.......

[Nebe]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
we cannot sit by while other countries blatantly disobey the UN over and over and over.

oh i forgot, we're the only ones that can do that

I'd addd more but I gotta go to work, and try to support myself in this crumbling economy of ours... think bush cares about me? think bush cares about the little guy who lost his job to a 6 year old in china?

i dont think so

[RIJIMMY]

Eb, there is where we have a fundamental disagreement. Should Bush care if jobs are outsourced, should he care if your business makes money? I hate to say it but I beleive not. I beleive Govt. should keep its nose out of business. To interfere, interferes with the laws of capitalism. As a business owner, you need to be competitive or lose money. Its not the Govt's role to help. I believe this is one of the major differences between Dems and Repubs. I am against big government (telling me or business) what to do
Big companies outsource to save money, which (theoreticaly) benefits shareholders. It is survival of the fittest. Sad but true, blame Adam Smith

[Fishpart]

Who passed NAFTA and began the flow of jobs to Mexico. When did the push to outsource to China start.

Hate to say it guys, it's not Democrats vs Republicans, but the haves (ultra rich) vs the poor bass tard who HAS to go to work every day. We're so busy earning a living we don't have time to monitor the elected officals we trust to take care of the common good.

[spence]

Against big government And you support BUSH HAHAHAHAHA

Bush is increasing the size of government at an alarming rate. He is no fiscal conservative, and I find a lot of it (like the prescription drug bill) to be patently corrupt.

Nobody including myself, Eben or John Kerry is saying we shouldn't have a global economy or eliminate outsourcing. The problem is that the playing field is skewed so that the American worker can't compete. Do you really think it's, not fair, but rather ethical to do business with corrupt countries that allow near slave labor, terrible working conditions and no environmental protection?

Don't you think it makes sense to give business an incentive to keep jobs in America and not pollute?

You seem to be confusing all Democrats with far left progressives that are borderline socialist. Most Democrats do believe in the power of capitolisim to drive excellence, but they also believe it should be regulated somewhat to restrict corruption and damage to our great nation. Corporations if left unchecked will destroy the environment and consolidate wealth before you know what's even happening.

We can have it both ways.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

The problem is that the playing field is skewed so that the American worker can't compete.

really? Why are housing prices through the roof and at the same time home sales have been soaring? Looks to me that some people are making some big bucks.

[spence]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
really? Why are housing prices through the roof and at the same time home sales have been soaring? Looks to me that some people are making some big bucks. [/B]

America is still a very wealthy country and the ultra low interest rates have kept the housing market alive.

Do you deny that near slave labor and tax loopholes haven't been a major contributor to US job loss, and that these are just part of happy capitolisim?

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Actually, I think the intenet has cut way down on productivity
I need to get back to work before I'm outsourced myself!

Eb, I think the economy is doing very well, I'm in the investment industry and things look very strong from my view. With the corp scandals, terror attacks,a war and a massive market correction, it is a miracle we are doing as well as we are. Being truthful, this has nothing to do with Bush. I believe a Pres has very little influence on the economy other than market sentiment.

[spence]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
[Being truthful, this has nothing to do with Bush. I believe a Pres has very little influence on the economy other than market sentiment. [/B]

I'd complely agree. I didn't give Clinton credit for the boom, nor blame Bush for the recession. I do give Clinton credit for following the Republican lead and signing the balanced budget amendment. I also blame Bush for the unecessary third round of tax cuts when we are at war with a massive deficit, and the huge increases in government spending.

If you're in the biz you know that a lack of cash isn't why people arn't investing. It's about confidence.

The rich pay most of the taxes and right now we need a little sacrifice to balance the sacrfice of those in Iraq. They can afford it, the middle class can't.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally posted by RIJIMMY

really? Why are housing prices through the roof and at the same time home sales have been soaring? Looks to me that some people are making some big bucks.

I think alot has to do with the fact that many folks have totally lost confidence in the stock market and are putting thier money in tangable investmenets such as 2nd homes, rental properties, or are upgrading thier single house...

And I exagerated on the economy 'crumbling'... its not crumbling, but its struggling. I dont want goverment to give me a hand, but i want to goverment to look out for everyone in this country and do its best to make sure that everyone has a job. If everyone has a job, more people have a disposable income, and then that money will boost the economy, which will create more jobs, and so on and so on...
right now i get the impression that Bush isnt really on the same page here. He's looking out for the rich and the company owners... the small american worker is in big trouble....

[spence]

Originally posted by Eben
If everyone has a job, more people have a disposable income, and then that money will boost the economy, which will create more jobs, and so on and so on...

There you go again Eben with your "trickle up" economics. I call it voodoo economics

Oh go blow glass

-spence

[Nebe]

What you dont agree with me?

think about it.. its like a food pyramid. the base is lower class people, the middle middle class and the top is well... the richest. the better off the lower class is, the more money they will spend and invest which will help the middle class, who own small businesses, etc.. and the highest of the classes will do well....... I dont see why this is voodoo spence??? please help me figure out why this doesnt make sense...