Is Something Wrong?

[BigFish]

I see it everywhere, people talking about how truely awful the fishing has been and it seems to get worse every year! I was talking with BasicPatrick earlier today and we were discussing how, over the last few seasons, the bait just seems to be staying offshore.....along with the bass! Not just at this time, when the so called "summer doldrums" are in full swing, but all season long! More and more surf fishermen are turning in their waders for boats because the fishing from the surf has been dismal and boats are the only way to get to the fish because, for some reason, they are not coming into the shore as in years past!! The backside of the Cape has been absolutely horrible the past 3 seasons and maybe we can attribute a good deal of that to the proliferation of the giant black rats...the seals! What about bait???? Is anyone seeing any? The fall run of the last 2 seasons has been the worst.....the last worst than the one before it! Is it a pattern? Is something wrong with the eco-system? Any thoughts or comments??? I for one believe something is wrong and I don't know what?!

[nightfighter]

Boat fishing up this way hasn't been exactly stellar..... got skunked last night, eels and herring, 5 hours, not a hit. Talked with four other boats, total of two small fish between the lot of us. And this has been fishing lots of historically fishy spots. Might have to travel out even further. Looking at charts again tonight. Hell a 24# fish won the Maddies Tourney a few weeks ago, and I know he went pretty far east of Gloucester..... I suck.

[pops]

seals

[Slipknot]

Lots of factors in play here Larry
here's a list from my uninformed uneducated opinion

1 global warming
2 daylight is longest this time of year and there is less dark night hours (not that that explains the crappy fall runs but....)
3 the pattern fish have been leaning to is follow the bait offshore where the seals ain't, been moving that way for sometime now
4 sandeels have changed there positions away from the sandy shores of the outer beaches more and more each year, don't know why but it affects their predator the bass since the bait just is not in close so we don't catch as many
5 Jersey has most of the large down there and they kill lots of fish and lots of large just like we have up here, IMO the whole population of stripers can't maintain at the take rate that is happening. We need to slow it down before it's too late, go back to 1 fish per person coastwide, then if we need to go up to 34" to start with.
6 the bluefish are scaring all the bass away
7 boats are an easy vehicle to get you to where the bass are, so of course they will catch more fish.

shore fishing has been dropping off for years now, maybe it's just a cycle, the canal sucks too, 4 years ago july was good, atleast the beginning of july, so I don't know

[ridler72]

I can only talk about what I know and that is Boston Harbor. Every year, at least for me it's the same. A good push of big fish comes by Boston Harbor around June and does the drive by. This year there was biggies. Poagies have been in moderate, most that I have seen since the 80's and shore fishing was horrible back then but the boaters rejoiced. July for me has always been slow. The Poagies have kept it interesting but not a sure bet for big fish. August-September is prime time up here for big fish. I hope that trend continues. I can't speak for everyone on Boston Harbor but it's been the same thing every year, at least for me.

[Tagger]

co-worker is a strickly off shore fisher.This past Memorial day he said they were 25 miles out when they noticed a disturbance on top of the water . On further investigation they saw they were small polluck being pushed up ,,by what they didn't know . They live lined one and hooked up a forty pound bass they released . He said they are out there..There's no bait close to shore. why would they be there ?.. They just follow thier nose . We really have to restore the bait situation ..Herring..Pogeys ,,Macks ,,Smelt "Restore it they will come " Smelt hasn't fully recovered from the industrial revolution ..lot of smelt runs never came back . You can't catch any Macks off the pier early spring last 8 yrs...When the levels are up ,,you don't need a boat ... catch 50 off the pier .

[Slingah]

my guess would be the bait...or lack of it....

[rizzo]

Large bodies of fish are staying in NJ and NY. Taking longer to get up to RI. When a population drops the fish don't spread out as much. Modern electronics and poachers are doing a number. North Carolina has no sense of conservation, large scale commercial outfits have bigtime kills, pounding away at fish all winter. You pound the same schools year after year you will deplete them. Theres only so much out there, it is not an endless resourse.

[CANAL RAT]

the spring fishing was awsome and it seemed like everybody go in on the action but now the water is getting warmer ,the fish are going into there slow pattern of sulking in deep water and only feeding and coming inshore at night. during july you have to fish at night with bait inorder to catch the big bass.

[BigFish]

Well aware of the doldrums as I mentioned in my initial thread......there are other factors at play! The night fishing has been horrible for a couple years now!

[In The Surf]

Simply put it's the BAIT. They're finding it and staying on it.
With Jersey's big pogie rebound the shore and boat guys have been doing well the last 2-3 years. The fish that would have come up this way are staying there on the pogies. I heard the same thing last year about LI sound, the bait was there so were the big bass. It's the same thing here in the bay the last 2-3 years, large schools of large pogies and the bass thick on them. We all thought they would drop out when the water warmed but it didn't play out like that, they just stayed on the bait till it was time to head south. The shore fishing on the open surf has been getting a little tougher on us up here because of it. Find the bait, find the fish.
And oh yeah fish away from the seals.

[Tagger]

If the bait is concentrated ,,the fish are concentrated .. Good for the fisher, not the fish .

[Finaddict]

Larry - Bait is a huge factor, not just that they are offshore but their main breeding grounds in the estuaries are being compromised more and more by coastal development and run-off both along our coasts and down in the major estuary systems up and down the coasts ...

... in fact, I remember reading an article in the AFTMA newsletter (American Fishing Tackle Manufacturers Association - the predecessor to today's American Sportfishing Association) in which Norville Processor - spelling? - reported on a study conducted in Chesapeake Bay where the young of the year were netted in the estuaries feeding the bay ... only one river system had young, but they were so plentiful in that one location that the study reported that the bay as a whole had a healthy population ... Mr. Prosser was trying to refute that claiming it was bogus ...

... the run-off down there includes a lot of agricultural run-off that has pesticides, etc., but also every day run-off from society getting closer to the water and getting more pollutants including raw sewage into the water than ever before ... and I feel it is starting to have an impact ...

... and on top of the coastal estuary degredation, commercial fishing for bait fish from eel elvers to smelt to pogies, herring ... the list goes on, but what's happening is that bait is depleted and not coming back. We can't point all of the fingers at the commercial group, as we all play our part in it ...

... and of course the same estuaries that the bait breeds in are the estuaries that stripers breed in and those are not as favorable to striper reproduction ...

... then throw in the recreational limit ... there was mention above of the stripers being kept in New Jersey ... it's the same up here, no different, there's just more down there now and more visible ... during the blitz of 25 years, one shop had something like 66 fish weighed in during a four-hour span and all fish were above the 30-pound mark. But who are we to tell someone who fishes hard that they can't take their legal limit? It would be nice if everyone practiced catch-and-release to a degree, but if they are within their limit ... they are doing nothing wrong ... no add in New York and CT and RI, Mass., NH and ME, Del, MD, VA, NC ... that's a lot of recreational harvesting ... on top of a large commercial harvest as well.

There's no one reason and no one solution, but there are a lot of factors contributing to the demise of our fishing ... and if commercials are staying within their legal limits, let them have their day ... let's just hope that everyone is having equal success ... which none of us are whether we are commercials or recreational anglers.

Boy that was a mouthful.

[Raider Ronnie]

For me,
Bass fishing has been so so, but i have not put much effort in the bass in a while.
But,
The Tuna fishing has been Red Hot for me for atleast 7 weeks !
And to be honest, the bass fishing has not been too appealing to me because of the tuna!

[irlnd32]

I agree about the Menhaden. They are around even in the bays in NY NJ. Why leave, plus the water has cooled off with the S winds.

[emgred]

I read this with great interest. As a Long Island surf caster a can attest to the change in the bait pattern. Over the last few years we have seen way more adult bunker that are holding in our area for the whole season. I have seen more and bigger Shad earlier this year then ever. As we all know, stripers are lazy. Large are lazier. Why should they leave where the food is. I don't know enough about the RI bunker/commercial fishing issues, but I do know that if they can't get to the bays and breed then you guys won't have the peanuts to hold the bass. Or even attract them in the first place.

Just my 2 cents

[Karl F]

Yes.. there is something wrong, and we have touched base on this before, and here in this thread.

A local tackle shop owner in town and I talked of this the other day.
He told me there is all the bass you want, not that far off shore, just out of the seals cruising range.. plentiful squid, sand eels, and even some healthy bunker, and macks.. I have said this in years past.. Why would the bass leave an all you can eat buffet, to risk running past the sea rats, for slim pickings near shore?

Seals.. push the bait and fish off shore.. because the seals cruise along the beachfront, so they can haul out and rest.. they have wiped out the inshore bait, and flounder and dabs and the like.. they have adapted and become oppurtunistic.. they recognize the surfcasters shape, a human carrying a long stick, and follow him, for a free meal.. they even target our plugs now....

Lack of access.. I know..a dead horse.. but when we can only access a limited portion of the outer beach by vehicle.. it hinders our attempts.. YES,, we can walk... but can't cover the ground as quickly or with the ease of a buggy.. and cannot access the miles and miles that were once free range.. here on the cape.. but.. that time is gone

MUNG.. another thing that is tough to dodge without the access to cover a large area, to find open water..

Inshore Bait migration to off shore.. See Seals

Some say that a fish caught from a boat says something about the individuals surfcasting skills.. well.. it ain't the 70's anymore..

Fish can still be found inshore, but you have to think different places..
estuarys, harbors, rivers, etc... follow the winds and tides.. and the bait.

Slip.. you could be right.. everything goes in cycles.. I hope I am alive for the next cycle of what was here in 77-81

Doldrums... I don't know... the daylight issue makes sense.. but... is it also a factor that a lot of folks just "quit fishing" for a few weeks in the summer?... take a break as it were?.. .. admitedly, I have not put in the time this year.. but.. my last two attempts.. not another soul (human, that is), could be found in the areas I fished....

Things to ponder....

[BigFish]

We all know those issues with the Cape Karl.....I am speaking of the broader issues.....the total lack of bait primarily! This is a problem all over Mass. The biggest question is why all of a sudden, the last 2-3 years, is the bait remaining offshore????

[Karl F]

Originally Posted by BigFish

We all know those issues with the Cape Karl.....I am speaking of the broader issues.....the total lack of bait primarily! This is a problem all over Mass. The biggest question is why all of a sudden, the last 2-3 years, is the bait remaining offshore????

See Seals.....

[BigFish]

Seals are not yet that much of a presence here on the south shore....not like down the Cape. They are coming though!

[redcrbbr]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

Lots of factors in play here Larry
here's a list from my uninformed uneducated opinion

1 global warming
2 daylight is longest this time of year and there is less dark night hours (not that that explains the crappy fall runs but....)
3 the pattern fish have been leaning to is follow the bait offshore where the seals ain't, been moving that way for sometime now
4 sandeels have changed there positions away from the sandy shores of the outer beaches more and more each year, don't know why but it affects their predator the bass since the bait just is not in close so we don't catch as many
5 Jersey has most of the large down there and they kill lots of fish and lots of large just like we have up here, IMO the whole population of stripers can't maintain at the take rate that is happening. We need to slow it down before it's too late, go back to 1 fish per person coastwide, then if we need to go up to 34" to start with.
6 the bluefish are scaring all the bass away
7 boats are an easy vehicle to get you to where the bass are, so of course they will catch more fish.

shore fishing has been dropping off for years now, maybe it's just a cycle, the canal sucks too, 4 years ago july was good, atleast the beginning of july, so I don't know

LETS NOT FORGET ABOUT THE ENDANGERED CORMMORANTS

[keeperreaper]

This year is the same as every year. Bass follow the bait. PERIOD!! Where the bait goes or stays is anyone's guess but I have caught a few large bass this year and a ridiculous amount of tuna. Find the bait find the fish!

[NIB]

The amount of fish I have seen the last few weeks it is amazing to me there might be fish anywhere's else..

I have noticed in the past few yrs that these southern bass seem to be morphing into a different strain.Their heads are more bullet shaped,more tuna like.A Off shore angler coming in from sharking came up on a huge pod of bunker 15 miles off.Is it possible with the increase of the bunker population these bass are becoming more of a off shore fisherey than many think.We get a shot at em when the planets line up other than that it's a desert.The bunker vacuum effect.
Another thing that concerns me is I don't see many 12-17 lb fish.This spring was poor.U really had to work for em.Plenty of ur smaller fish it's almost like a yr class is missing.
Karl if there are off shore bass like u mentioned I would think they would have had a shot at em thru the ditch...Was that short run in late May it??
Even though we have some amazing fishing days this yr. It was not as good as last yr.Tough to beat last yr.But this is the first year in these runs it was not better than the one prior.Many prognasticators where claiming spring run a bust as they where late this yr.Everthing was late this yr. I still had a monster day 5-23..The numbers are starting to wind down now.I still think we have a few good shots at em down here yet.If u want a shot at em make friends with someone in Conn. cause they are comin.
Krispy u out there....

[Vogt]

Last fall in Connecticut, the bunker was absolutely everywhere. The result was an explosive fall run for large fish. There were sooo many slammer blues around my spots and some really really nice bass. We would have action all day and all night just by moving from spot to spot.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by Vogt

Last fall in Connecticut, the bunker was absolutely everywhere. The result was an explosive fall run for large fish. There were sooo many slammer blues around my spots and some really really nice bass. We would have action all day and all night just by moving from spot to spot.

Hey Buddy....

[luds]

Fishing has been pretty good North of the Cape as far as I can tell. It was just a little strange for me this year because July has been great after a dismal June. I also thought the fishing in May was pretty good.

[Back Beach]

Surf fishing is, was, and will always be cyclical with regard to its productivity. I believe there are plenty of fish in the ocean right now. The boat catches prove it.There are lots of small fish. From shore its always a crap shoot as to where the schools of large fish will stage on a given year. Many great seasons on the cape are being succeeded by what seems to be a prolonged dry spell. When the cape was hot, a lot of the spots that are productive now were dry. If you put in enough years at this game, you will see ups and downs. A lot of you guys here started fishing in recent years and really don't know what slow is. The fishing now is so far from "bad" it's ridiculous. Most guys can't appreciate it, especially if you started fishng after 1990 when the stocks began to boom. The fish may not be in your favorite spot every time out hitting your favorite lure with abandon, but that isn't an indicator of the fishing quality. Move.

[Pete_G]

Any other long term fisherman who have seen far more ups and downs then me want to add some thoughts?

This is a good topic and it could use some additional insight from those who have gone through lean times from shore in the past.

Are there any other factors that are currently in place, especially relating to baitfish that parallel slower stretches in years prior? I tend to agree there's a lot of fish out there, but clearly surf fisherman in many areas aren't or can't cast to them.

[Flaptail]

Easy.

1.Bounty on seals
2.Immediate end to menhaden fishery by both commercial and bait for sport shops suppliers
3. End commercial fishing for bass except for real, year round commercial fishermen. (ie: no plumbers allowed)
4. 36 inches for everyone at one per day
5. Keep the river herring protected for ten years not three
6. Ban mid water trawling for herring
7. enforce stricter rules for groundwater discharge in coastal embayments, marshes and adjoining wetlands.
8. Open the backbeaches on CC from Eastham to Long Point to orv access.
9.Allow orv night fishing access only to South Beach in Chatham.
10. Buy a boat and learn how to access closed or unaccesible by land areas by the same to fish from shore.
11. Realize that striper fishing has more secrets than 7 volumes of Harry Potter adventures and that there are hundreds of ways to catch bass when they are "not" there. Experimentation is the key.
12. Positive attitude in the face of sure failure.

Some of the above will never come to pass, like #'s 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9. But hey you can dream can't you?

[JohnR]

I think the overall amount of bass is probably in fair to OK shape and not the reasons we are doing "poorly".

Let's look at what we know:

• Bass fishing has been fantastic where there are bunker; 'Gansett Bay, large areas of Jersey, LI, parts of LI Sound/CT, and Boston Harbor had a nice run.
• Some people are having great years, some people are having miserable years but this is usually the case. The fish move around a lot.
• Because we stay (or are supposed to) in the close waters near shore, lots of offshore migrations of bass are go way underreported. In the fall, think about the Great South Channel Bass Slaughter that gets more reported every year.
• Weak inshore bait populations - with the exception of the bunker - not bringin fish back as often.
  
  Here is some guessing:
  
• I've heard some interesting opinions from people that have seen some good tagging survey data. What happens if your NJ fish and your Cape Cod summer fish are from the Chesapeake and since they are spending so much quality time on bunker in NJ that a sizeable percentage never gets to the Cape? If you look over the past few years at the progressively improved NJ fishing, does it coincide with the falling Cape Cod fishing????
• Are the RI inshore fish Hudson fish and less influenced by the NJ bunker?

This is very cyclical and varies from year to year, the past few years the Cape has had it pretty hard but the Jersey guys have been doing very well. Is there a connection? What about the other failing forage stocks in New England? Like the herring??