Property Tax BS!

[BigFish]

Get the property tax bill to end the year but I guess we are gonna start the new year the same way we are ending this one!!! Wondering why???? Tax rates go up even though the value of our property has gone down???? Really no logical way to explain that!!! Taxes never seem to drop with the value of the property....do they!!!

[Raven]

well you do have an office for your sales and that expense would be a tax write off...

[Mike P]

We were re-assessed downwards about 2 years ago, to reflect the decrese in valuation because of the weak RE market.

It does happen. In some towns, at least.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Mike P

We were re-assessed downwards about 2 years ago, to reflect the decrese in valuation because of the weak RE market.

It does happen. In some towns, at least.

Would like to see that happen in my town. My taxes have gone up 3 g's in 5 years, and they are going up again.

[striperman36]

Appeal, I plan to.

[UserRemoved1]

Costs money to run a town govt.

School systems, sewers, water systems, your streets get plowed. Seems entirely logical to me. My tax evaluation went down this year. I lost 30k valuation in last two years. That's less than 10% of my houses real world value. Nonetheless it went down two years in a row. Comparable house sales in the area have me holding very steady in what I paid for my house if I was to sell. Much more than what they are currently assessing. (not bad for a housing market supposed to be in the dumper) What will now happen is that the town will not have sufficient funds to run. Tax rate increases. They are not supposed to have a deficit

If you file for an abatement what do you think your going to save? Nothing. Peanuts typically. Then the tax rate goes up again because once again they don't have the money to run.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&

Costs money to run a town govt.

School systems, sewers, water systems, your streets get plowed. Seems entirely logical to me. My tax evaluation went down this year. I lost 30k valuation in last two years. That's less than 10% of my houses real world value. Nonetheless it went down two years in a row. Comparable house sales in the area have me holding very steady in what I paid for my house if I was to sell. Much more than what they are currently assessing. (not bad for a housing market supposed to be in the dumper) What will now happen is that the town will not have sufficient funds to run. Tax rate increases. They are not supposed to have a deficit

If you file for an abatement what do you think your going to save? Nothing. Peanuts typically. Then the tax rate goes up again because once again they don't have the money to run.

If that's the case, they shouldn't say that your real estate tax is based on the valuation of your property. They should be honest and just say that they will tax you whatever they see fit to try to balance their budget. If they need more money, they will just tax you more. No need to come up with some phoney baloney excuse that your property is somehow worth more now even though if you tried to sell it, you'd quickly see that it's worth less than the town thinks it's worth.

[BigFish]

Thanks John....I wanted to say just that but I did not want to waste the energy!

[UserRemoved1]

It is here? My house was valued on the last sale price through MLS. the town will revalue it any time it's sold.

Originally Posted by fishbones

If that's the case, they shouldn't say that your real estate tax is based on the valuation of your property. They should be honest and just say that they will tax you whatever they see fit to try to balance their budget. If they need more money, they will just tax you more. No need to come up with some phoney baloney excuse that your property is somehow worth more now even though if you tried to sell it, you'd quickly see that it's worth less than the town thinks it's worth.

[fishbones]

Does your town have an Assessor, Salty?

[UserRemoved1]

There's no excuses to revalue the property? Not sure what your talking about. Bigfish if that's how you think it works then I suggest you go talk to your assessor and ask them specifically how they value your house and how the tax system works. I don't think you understand right now based on what you say here..

If it takes $20 million to run the town each year then they have to set the tax base on what they need for income. If people file for abatements then they still need the same $20m to run the town. They won't revalue your house arbitrarily they will raise the tax rate. It goes hand in hand with what the house is worth. If you sell your house tomorrow the next owner will pay taxes on the new mls sale value until such time that they determine through comparable property sales that the rates have fallen. It just so happens right now they say my house is worth less than what the last mls sale was. Even though comparable properties are selling for the same or more than the original amount I paid for my house. If that tax income goes down it's got to be made up somewhere. By law they have to first apply to the state for a change in tax rate, the state audits their books and looks to see if it's justified for what they need.

And this doesn't take into account rates which are disapproved or town meeting etc failures in votes which result in cuts etc.

[UserRemoved1]

sure does. And when my house was last sold he came out and remeasured the property...went through the whole thing. turned out the previous owners were never paying taxes on the screen porch..

Originally Posted by fishbones

Does your town have an Assessor, Salty?

[UserRemoved1]

Closest comparable house was last year on an adjoining street 9 houses away. Same size house, same everything. Sold for what I paid for my house 7 years ago. $30k more than the town currently assesses my house for and I'm taxed at. I'm on the winning side right now...until they either raise the tax rate, or my house is re-assessed in an improving market of comparable houses or it's sold.

Originally Posted by fishbones

If that's the case, they shouldn't say that your real estate tax is based on the valuation of your property. They should be honest and just say that they will tax you whatever they see fit to try to balance their budget. If they need more money, they will just tax you more. No need to come up with some phoney baloney excuse that your property is somehow worth more now even though if you tried to sell it, you'd quickly see that it's worth less than the town thinks it's worth.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&

Closest comparable house was last year on an adjoining street 9 houses away. Same size house, same everything. Sold for what I paid for my house 7 years ago. $30k more than the town currently assesses my house for and I'm taxed at. I'm on the winning side right now...until they either raise the tax rate, or my house is re-assessed in an improving market of comparable houses or it's sold.

So you have no problem with paying your RE tax because your making out. Will it bother you if the town decides to raise your taxes on a whim?

Do you really believe that a town should be able to increase your property taxes so they can meet a budget deficit? That's completely insane. If a towns budget is out of whack, the people responsible for that budget need to figure out where they can make cuts to bring it back to where it needs to be. In your scenario, a town can spend itself into a huge deficit and then just increase property taxes to make up the difference. That's not only crazy, but it's illegal.

[UserRemoved1]

How can they raise your taxes on a whim?? Please explain. Document please. First hand examples.

They either keep the budget the way it is or they cut it. Town meeting or your town council makes this decision.

[UserRemoved1]

If the town sets a budget then gets less tax revenues they either have to get approved cuts from the townspeople in TM or the City councilors (depending on form of govt) have to vote to make the cuts. They can't spend to a deficit where did I say they could??

If it take 20million to run your town and that's the budget they have to stick to it unless town govt votes in a tax increase to avoid cuts if there's a shortfall.

NONE of which can be done "arbitrarily" or "on a whim" as suggested here. It's approved by the town govt and submitted to the state DOR for approval.

Originally Posted by fishbones

So you have no problem with paying your RE tax because your making out. Will it bother you if the town decides to raise your taxes on a whim?

Do you really believe that a town should be able to increase your property taxes so they can meet a budget deficit? That's completely insane. If a towns budget is out of whack, the people responsible for that budget need to figure out where they can make cuts to bring it back to where it needs to be. In your scenario, a town can spend itself into a huge deficit and then just increase property taxes to make up the difference. That's not only crazy, but it's illegal.

[fishbones]

[QUOTE=#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&;824039]If it takes $20 million to run the town each year then they have to set the tax base on what they need for income. If people file for abatements then they still need the same $20m to run the town.QUOTE]

You said that they set the tax rates based on what the town needs to meet the budget. I know you understand that they can't just change the tax rate without it going to vote, so how will they increase the tax revenue? The only way to do that without raising the tax rate is to reassess the properties. The Assessor does that, not MLS. If the Town Manager tells the Assessor to come up with numbers to meet the town budget, how do you think the'll do that? They will raise the values of people's properties.

[UserRemoved1]

Budgets are done with a projected revenue. If the revenue don't match they have to either cut stuff or raise the tax rate, if the townspeople say no new taxes then they cut. The assessor can't change the value of your house arbitrarily or on a whim. It's done based on comparable sales, and figures provided by the state dor.


If you file for an abatement and you say get $200 off your yearly taxes then they have a budget shortfall. Either means cuts or raise the rates to make up for the shortfall. As said previously the money has to come from somewhere.

BIGFISH does your kid go to Hanover schools? Does your street get plowed and maintained? Do you have a town hall of people that run your town??? Do buildings need to be maintained? Parks? Playgrounds?

Just like a channel clicker...if you don't like it move. If you don't like the taxes and feel your getting shafted MOVE. Run for local selectman and make a difference.

I've never had issues paying my taxes to my town. It's a great place to live I like the town. If I felt I was getting the shaft I'd do something about it. they can't just re-assess the properties to get more funds. Nowhere have I said that here either.

[fishbones]

Scott, I live in a well run town and I'm also involved in town government. I attend all the town meetings regarding budgets, etc... If you think the assessor doesn't set values based on what your town needs, you're mistaken.
My neighbor has an acre of land, but only about 1/3 of it is useable. When the house was built 5 years ago, they paid taxes on the useable land and the dwelling. Two years ago, their tax rate went way up. When the questioned it, they were told that they were now being taxed on the entire acre of "useable" land. They told the town to come down and take a look and tell them what that 2/3's of an acre could be used for. The town came down and saw a drainage pond with a sign saying that nothing was to be built or modified beyond that point. The town apologized and adjusted their taxes back. Last year, the value of their home all of a sudden increased while my house and the one on the other side of their stayed the same. Does that sound normal to you?
I don't think that you're really that naive to believe that towns don't manipulate property values in a bad economy when they know that they wouldn't be able to get away with raising the tax rate. In a bad real estate market, there's no way that a person should expect their property to increase in value without making improvements to it.

[UserRemoved1]

Not naive. I read everything in my town and participate in TM etc..You pointed out where someone raised a rate of tax based on an error. Had someone entered the information in the computer correctly it never would have happened. Someone somewhere saw a discrepancy and it was changed. Just like when my house was re-assessed for being sold and the assessor found out they weren't paying taxes on the 3 season screen porch.

I'm betting that the house was under assessed to begin with. Suspect you only heard one side of the story there. I suspect that a database spit that house out as being under-assessed based on comparable sales in the neighborhood. While your house didn't change because it was more than or the same for comparables to your house.

I've never ever in 21 years of home ownership in 3 towns seen an instance where they changed my property taxes because of a need to increase available funds. not once.

I'd very much like to hear what bigfish is railing about. You and I can go round and round about this all day long. It's bigfish that doesn't understand how it works.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&

I've never ever in 21 years of home ownership in 3 towns seen an instance where they changed my property taxes because of a need to increase available funds. not once.

Salty, you've really lost me. My taxes just went up, considerably. My house value has gone down, considerably. Didnt they do exactly what you said above (in the quote)?
they raised property taxes to increase funds. Why else would they raise it? Im missing something.

[JohnnyD]

It is interesting to me that a thread about Property Tax is 20 posts deep and not a single mention of Prop 2 1/2. Towns can't just arbitrarily increase taxes more than 2.5% without requesting an override.

One thing that Bigfish leaves out is if he's paying more money while his assessed value has actually gone down.

As an aside, I've always found the Assessor position being appointed by the town BS. Terrible conflict of interest.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It is interesting to me that a thread about Property Tax is 20 posts deep and not a single mention of Prop 2 1/2. Towns can't just arbitrarily increase taxes more than 2.5% without requesting an override.

One thing that Bigfish leaves out is if he's paying more money while his assessed value has actually gone down.

As an aside, I've always found the Assessor position being appointed by the town BS. Terrible conflict of interest.

Johnny or Bill, any idea whats up with Mansfield this year? My quarterly bill was up a lot.

[UserRemoved1]

Rijim not sure how better to explain it. I've not ever had my taxes just arbitrarily go up just so the town could have more money in the bank. Taxes go up because of a shortfall in income because the projections were wrong for the budget. Not just on a whim as was said here earlier. When I lived in Hudson my house was reassessed twice in 11 years. Both times well under what the house was worth on the market.

When I bought here in Uxbridge my taxes went way up the first year...because they go by the actual sold price on MLS which I believe most towns do now. At some point further down the road they determined that my house was worth less-probably based on comparables sold. My assessment went down $30k in 2 years. Our tax rate hasn't changed as of yet, (though maybe it has before the last two years, I smoked too much pot in high school and my memory isn't what is used to be)

There's been no prop 2.5 over rides here lately. shhhhh.

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Salty, you've really lost me. My taxes just went up, considerably. My house value has gone down, considerably. Didnt they do exactly what you said above (in the quote)?
they raised property taxes to increase funds. Why else would they raise it? Im missing something.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Johnny or Bill, any idea whats up with Mansfield this year? My quarterly bill was up a lot.

Jim, swing by this page and see how your value and bill relate to previous assessments.

Town of Mansfield, MA - Property Search

Also, "Mansfield —

After much back and forth discussion, selectman approved a new tax rate Wednesday for the 2011 fiscal year.

Sticking with the split tax rate, the new residential rate will be $14.32 per $1,000 of valuation compared to last year’s $13.33 per $1,000. This means an approximate increase of $120 for the average taxpayer based on median home values."
http://www.wickedlocal.com/mansfield...eld-businesses

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Jim, swing by this page and see how your value and bill relate to previous assessments.

Town of Mansfield, MA - Property Search

Also, "Mansfield —

After much back and forth discussion, selectman approved a new tax rate Wednesday for the 2011 fiscal year.

Sticking with the split tax rate, the new residential rate will be $14.32 per $1,000 of valuation compared to last year’s $13.33 per $1,000. This means an approximate increase of $120 for the average taxpayer based on median home values."
Higher tax hike for Mansfield businesses - Mansfield, MA - Mansfield News

Thanks Johnny. Up a buck per thousand!
Salty - so the town raised my tax rate. My property value has nothing to do with it. They need more money, they raised the rate. To Fishbones point, property values dont "really" matter. If they need 20 million to run a town and 5 people live there, they have to divide it somehow and so property value is the divider. Its not what determines the money needed. It is misleading. Its not a tax on the worth of my property.

back to my Mansfield gripe - we add a mall raking in tons of $$$ and my taxes go up! Crazy.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Thanks Johnny. Up a buck per thousand!

...

back to my Mansfield gripe - we add a mall raking in tons of $$$ and my taxes go up! Crazy.

No problem.

They add a mall that will provide "over $1M in extra revenue the first year and even more after that." What the town left out is that they were adding $600k - 800k worth of expenses in police/fire resources and the added public works demand. Mansfield Crossing is definitely convenient, I'm there at least once a week. However, exactly what I said 4 years ago would happened has occurred. They advertised to the residents the increased revenue and no one questioned the added costs.

Don't forget the expanded development of Clemmey's lot where the Home Depot and Shaws is. That area is relatively new development.

Between Great Woods, the industrial park, development by Clemmey and the massive influx of residents, Mansfield has always had money to burn. Now with reduced value of the industrial park, few concerts at Great Woods and no new construction, they don't have the money any more.

With all the retail and food services growth, it's only a matter of time before the town institutes a .75% local tax like Plainville has.

[UserRemoved1]

No that's right they don't set rates on prop values they set rates to eliminate budget shortfalls.

I'm still waiting to hear from Bigfish.

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Thanks Johnny. Up a buck per thousand!
Salty - so the town raised my tax rate. My property value has nothing to do with it. They need more money, they raised the rate. To Fishbones point, property values dont "really" matter. If they need 20 million to run a town and 5 people live there, they have to divide it somehow and so property value is the divider. Its not what determines the money needed. It is misleading. Its not a tax on the worth of my property.

back to my Mansfield gripe - we add a mall raking in tons of $$$ and my taxes go up! Crazy.

[Backbeach Jake]

Here's a hard and fast, carved in stone, unbreakable rule for you:
Taxes Never,Ever Go Down!! We are servants of the State, we serve the master, the master will not be denied and the master does not sacrifice. Period.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&

There's no excuses to revalue the property? Not sure what your talking about. Bigfish if that's how you think it works then I suggest you go talk to your assessor and ask them specifically how they value your house and how the tax system works. I don't think you understand right now based on what you say here..

If it takes $20 million to run the town each year then they have to set the tax base on what they need for income. If people file for abatements then they still need the same $20m to run the town. They won't revalue your house arbitrarily they will raise the tax rate. It goes hand in hand with what the house is worth. If you sell your house tomorrow the next owner will pay taxes on the new mls sale value until such time that they determine through comparable property sales that the rates have fallen. It just so happens right now they say my house is worth less than what the last mls sale was. Even though comparable properties are selling for the same or more than the original amount I paid for my house. If that tax income goes down it's got to be made up somewhere. By law they have to first apply to the state for a change in tax rate, the state audits their books and looks to see if it's justified for what they need.

And this doesn't take into account rates which are disapproved or town meeting etc failures in votes which result in cuts etc.

I'll tell you , they definitely don't check what houses sell for. If they did I would have been playing alot more 3 years ago. I asked the assessor if my house would sell for x, and it is less than the y the town says it is worth can't they drop it . He told me that is not how they value property for tax purposes.