Spinning rods : to high frame or not?

[tlapinski]

ok, i built a couple 9' rods last year with high frames. before that i always used regular frame guides. what do you prefer and why? i am not sure which i like better. it did take me a little while to get used to the look of the highs. i am not sure if i have noticed any benefits from one to the other, but i have not tried the same blank built one with highs and one with regular.

[Billy 40]

Will you be using strictly braid?

[Bawana]

IMO----How the high frame guides casts depends on how far up the blank you put 40HH guide it usually goes much further up the blank.like 10-12 inches more then a 50 SVLG.Its a totally different principal and works great if set up correctly.I just picked up 3 -9 ft blanks --an Arra 1083 and a Batson 1089 and an amtac 1089 from M+D to see how the Batson and Amtac blanks are as no one would give an opion on them. Would have also picked up batson 10 ft but he was out of them.Think I*ll set the Arra up real light with TICH-40 double foot and then down to TICH single foot guides 30- 25-20-16-12-12-10 and a 10 tip .Bought the sustain 5000fa to use on this.Burled cork rings all glued up just got to drill and ream to mount on blank.Then the hardest part picking colors and a pattern to wrap.The transucent color of these blanks remind me of a fly rod blank and might look good wrapped with no color preserver to make the wraps translucent like classic fly rod look.Anyone tried this??? back to guides---I set up the pac bay 10882f like this except used sic guides and was really impressed with how well it casts small stuff with the 3500BR.How big the first guide is will depend on the size reel you plan on using.I usually use the 40HH guides only on rods 10 ft and above because of the extra distance to the first guide.I also use more guides per rod to keep the line following the blank without the flat spots in line(spinning) or rubbing the blank (casting) guide to guide when there is a load on the blank.Doesnt seem to hurt casting and it distributes the load on the blank better.Where the 1089*s are a heavier blank I may attemt using the 40HH to see how it works.I have only used the SIC ones so I think I will try a set of the Hardaloy fuji ones.I like the Pac-bay sic and tich guides but just dont like the Brown color of the pac bay hialoy.Reminds me of the old Fuji sterite guides.I have done 9 ft rods(the 1088 and the glb1081M and used the 50 BSVLG hardaloy as a first guide and these really cast well.I*d say it was pretty much up to how you want the rod to look and how much you want to spend to get that look.Hope this wasnt to long.

[Goose]

Does the choice in reel play in determining high frame or not?? Because a 40HH sits as high as a 50 wouldn't that benifit the performance of the rod, making it a little lighter??

[Bawana]

This could be just the rambling of a pyschotic personal rod builder.I*m not an engineer but based on what I have observed I dont think the reel size is going to detemine weather or not to use high frames.It will effect where the first guide is put on the blank.On a shorter blank it might be that the 40HH would be so far up the blank that you couldnt use enough guides to drop the line height down to the tip and there would be to much flex in the part of the blank between the reel and the first guide.It would depend on the blank used. Because of this The 50BSVLG which is still a pretty high frame lets you run the guide a little further back and still lets the line flow through the guides without chocking and causing line slap.Line coming off the reel according to fuji since they introduced the high frame theory funnels down to the first guide and then pretty much runs in a straight line to the tip.They are now pushing this with the new concept guide placement theory.Old theories used to be that it ran in a funnel all the way to the Tip and was gradually brought down to size by guide size.It used to be that surf rods were built with a 75mm first guide then 60-50-40 30 20 16 etc.This was with S/S guides like mildrum.Fuji had trouble making ther early ceremic guides in over 50mm as they were prone to breaking and poping out of the shock rings they tried to cushion them in. I think their biggest was 65mm.the 50 was the most reliable biggest guide so that is what got used by most.They also have to deal with the publics perception on how the guides should look going down a rod and gradually decreasing in size.everything is a trade off as to how it looks and what fits in the area you have to put the guides in.I have found that there are a lot of factors and compromises for guide spacing that have to be made for not only blank performance but also for what actually appeals to ones eye as far as spacing.I use different styles and experiment only for Me-- Myself and I. All three of us like to build rods and fish. Always asking what everyone else thinks and how they are doing it so feel free to give opions.I could have it all wrong but it works for us.I heard a rod builder in Worchester Sportstman show a couple of years ago telling a perspective client how he used a geometric formula to figure guide spacing and I cracked up.I told him I had a formula also it was called a ruler and a reel with line on it.Once you do a certain blank you pretty much know where to put guides on a simular rod as a starting point.line should follow blank without sharp angles guide to guide and on casting rods line should not hit blank with a normal load on it.Whewwwww did I forget anything.Feel free to disagree!!! We*re willing to learn.Sorry for length hope it helps

[Billy 40]

If you are building a plugging stick with braid & a 4 or 5 foot leader & a swivel - would you still use a 40HH, and why?

Low Rider.

[tlapinski]

i built a 1088 last winter with high frames. here is the recent thread that has my notes in it. 1088 HIGH FRAMES this worked fine with high frames, VS200 and VS250 reels with 90% braid use and 10% mono use.

i also built a 1087 and a 1208 the year before with regular frames for the same reel/line specs. i started with a BSVLG50. off hand i do not remember the rest of the guides. i had no issues of any sort with this set up. the only reason i switched over to the high frames on the 1088 was to try them out.

now i have several 9' spinners and a 10' spinner to build. so, why would i want to use high frames instead of regular frames?

[Bawana]

The bsvlg(hardloy)and the svsg(sic) are still a high frame guide just not as high as the bhvlg or the hvsg.IF in doubt of this stand it up next to a bhnlg or a nsg guide.graphite blanks are usually stiffer in the bottom half of the blank then the glass rods( unless its a F series glass blank) so there isnt as much of a problem with blank curvature in between the reel and the 1st guide.If you start with a 40HH it is going to be placed further up the blank so you would probably be able to use 1 less guide on the rod.you might save a little overall weight but if that much is going to make a difference then you might consider holding a ron Arra blank and then say a pac-bay blank.Although the 1088 is rated for 4 oz it is overloaded with this much weight on it and though it might do it for a while it will break.In reallity it is much better suited to around 3oz max.You will find a considerable difference in weight there also.Look at your measurement to the 1 st guide its 35.25 inches with a total of 5 guides used.Compared to how these guides were originally ment to be set up on a tournement rod that is a very small distance to the first guide.AS I said they work well but are not being used to the full potential that Fuji designed them to be used.They were designed to be used on extremely long tournement rods but they do work on shorter rods.When they were introduced the shortest rod they gave measurement for was12ft-8 inches and the measurement to the 1st guide was 62.2 inches.What is this about 80% further away then you have it.IF these are used you have to compromise because of blank lenth and strenth.If you had done that same rod with bsvlg how many guides would you have used.I would have used a minumum of 6 and maybe 7 so as to distribute the line stress evenly along the blankand to keep the line following the blank without sharp angles between the guides with a load on the blank.5 IMO is not going to be enough.But its your rod so you can use the one 40hh and a tip if you want.How much weight is saved is in grams mabe oz*s. using the 40HH and less guides Either of these style guides will work well how they are set up varies greatly.Which one to use isup to YOU I would use the Bsvlg with a 50 as a first guide for mono but braid wears groves in hardaloy so if you use the sic the bigget you can get from FUJI is the 40mm so why not use the Hvsg 40HH sic and drop down to reg 30svsg.What does a 4or 5 ft leader with a swivel have to do with running a 40hh first guide??I think longer leaders are harder to cast unless your planning on pendulem casting.More like lobbing then a cast.you better worry more about the tip size if you plan on getting that swivel to go past it.I dont even like the sound a shock leader makes going out.