Questions About Making Striper A Gamefish?

[BigFish]

If the striped bass is made a gamefish.....what would be the parameters as far as fishing them? Could recreational fisherman still catch and keep them? Could commercial fisherman still fish them??? Can anyone clue me in, I am curious how gamefish status works!

[JohnB]

" Gamefish" as a regulatory term means no take by anybody. There is a group (stripers forever) that uses the term as one of its goals. This group is not actually advocating true gamefish status but instead wishes to end commercial fishing and allow a higher level recreational take in the form of liberalizing the rules on the recreational harvest of schoolies. So far this group has not accomplished anything and has failed to even muster a paid membership base.

JB

[MakoMike]

Bigfish,
The way the term is being used with respect to stripers it means that no sale of the fish would be allowed, as is currently the case in CT and NJ as well as several other states.

[BigFish]

So we would be able to catch them and eat them....just not sell them? No commercial fishing at all?

[goosefish]

Zero. No otter trawl, handline, rod-and-reel, octopus pots, Gravity traps, whippy boughs or spring traps, stone walls as tidal weirs, gillnets, fyke nets, fish traps, hoop nets, lampara seines, ritual techniques like scoop baskets, verandah nets, and angling in the air............................................... .........

I think that it is their mission to stop the sale of striped bass. In Florida there is no sale of snook and redfish. They are gamefish only, and if you choose to keep one it has to fall into a slot limit, say 20"--28". Anything under or over gets released.

[Swimmer]

I signed up for their email news items at the Marlborough show. I realized they were against commercial taking of stripers, but I had no idea their slant was so retsrictive. The guys in the booth got a real charge when I wrote down my aol address, stripedbass@aol.com. With that address I was an instant celebrity. I dont think their cup of tea is for me. Good question Bigfish!

Put yourself in the fishes position and asked yourself, "is it going to be worth eating this?"

[tlapinski]

my understanding, and i could be wrong, is that gamefish status will also eliminate targeting during the "spawning time slot". i was informed that this would put a closed season roughly until the 1st of June! does anyone have any clarification regarding that?

[BigFish]

From the responses that I have seen so far I would have to say that I would not want gamefish status for stripers....sounds more like something the folks at PETA would like!!!

[fishinmedic]

Most of you have this all wrong. Maine has gamefish status. No commercial fishing. Can keep one fish between 20-26 inches. Log on to stripersforever.org and read for yourself. They are pro-recreational fisherman.

[spence]

I've not read anything about stripersforever that would lead me to believe they want to restrict recreational fishing in any way.

What does seem clear is that the commercial side is more about politics/money than species management. With all the revenue recreational fishing is capable of generating, it seems to be a nobrainer to me.

-spence

[Flaptail]

The aim of Stripers Forever is hugely one sided and totally selfish in the fact that they want gamefish status for bass for recreational use only. First recs take way more bass in MA than the commercials. The only reason we know how much the comms take is that they must report thier take. If recs had to it would be a real eye opener. They do not want to have recs report for this reason. Second the light tackle and fly guys are behind this, 90% percent of those guys are novice to the sport and know nothing of it's history. Say it does make it through and the bass become a gamefish. The guides will clean up and make more money than anyone because by making it a gamefish they have the fish still as a resource and they can make money without having to catch and sell them. That in fact makes the fish a commercial product in another way and the guides and Stripers Forever now have that resource captured all for themselves which is what they really want. Don't be fooled. This is a thinly vieled attempt by one user group trying to capture the resource for themselves by making outrageous exagerations. misconceptions and lies.

I haven't sold a fish since 1986. I still support the commercial sale and you all need to know that this attempt is being forwarded by ceratin people who, in the name of conservation, are trying to have it all to themselves. And remenber this, most of the people in that group are novices and most couldn't catch thier ass anyway if thier lives depended on it. Rookies duped by liars is what Stripers Forever is, plain and simple.

Want to help Striped Bass? Sign the petitions to stop the depletion of the bases food sources like Menhaden, herring poaching etc, than you really will be doing something good for the Striped bass.

[fishinmedic]

This sounds like a commercial fisherman's responce. It is one sided. The side of the recreational fisherman. Look at Florida. Would it make sense to have a commercial fishery for snook? They protect their snook like gold. However you still can fish for them'keep them and eat them. It is true that the recreational angler harvests more fish than the commercial guys,but the commercial guys kill about 100,000 fish a year 34" and above in Massachusetts . Let the commercial guys switch to guiding and we will have the best of both worlds.

['ol pajamas]

Who here is a commercial fisherman?

[BigFish]

Not me but why?

[JohnR]

This is a case of user group allocation and trying to get the commercial allocation moved to the recs. By nature I think is unfair to exclude the commercials for sake of a "right to claim more fish". I also feel that StripersForever is just being selfish gimme gimme gimme. However, all that said, I think 40 fish per open day is way too friekin much of a take.

Yes, the rec take exceeds the commercial take but the rec group exponentialy exceeds the comm group. And the commercials that bass fish are not going to make a living off bass, purely supplemental in form or another. So in that sense its not a "true commercial" fish.

This always make for good fodder come cabin fever time

[BasicPatrick]

BF,

The answer to your question depends on verbage and definition. true "gamefish" status is "no-take" period. One hundred per cent catch & release. As has been noted, there are other ways some states have written laws, as has been mentioned in the FLA Snook comments.

The isssues like allocation, public access, aqua farming, tradition & historical use, social value, commercial value and recreational value all come into play in this question.

[BigFish]

Then I am against giving stripers "game Fish" status! Thanks for the info, but I would rather keep working at conservation through limiting the take by all than not to be able to harvest a few for recreation and for my table. Those of you who disagree with me then that is your option, but for the 6 or 8 fish I take a year....fisherman like me are not the problem. I also agree it lies with take permitted by commercials, JohnR hit it on the head....40 fish per open day is way too much! JMO!

Thanks for the input, I just like to be informed on some things. This being one of them.

['ol pajamas]

JohnR, I have no idea what your motivations are or who you are affiliated with to state such blatant misinformation. I won't waste my time going into it with you because the facts or many published books and reports. There are many sites on the internet as well. The legal amount of fish allotted may be lower to comms than recs but the kill enormous on the comms side. ENORMOUS.
Here is an example of hundreds if thousands:

From Keith Walters:


UP THE CREEK FRIDAY 3-5-04
"We picked up 11 illegal nets yesterday," a Natural Resources Police (NRP)
officer told me recently. None of the nets had the required buoys marked
with the fisherman's license number, it could be concluded the nets were
illegal, or had been abandoned. Some people call these freed, or lost,
gill nets "Ghost Nets." They have been mostly previously-illegal
monofilament that is more deadly than the old nylon material, and the
now-legal "multi-filament" (two strands make it legal now) material has an
estimated 50-plus year life; it keeps catching and killing for years. This
change from the old nylon net to the deadly twin-strand mono sometimes
called "crystal" due to its clarity in the water, was actively supported
by Pete Jensen in his previous incarnation as Fisheries Director.
After the officer's net confiscation, some people indicated an interest in
buying the illegal nets (back?). The NRP cop I'll call Officer X for good
reasons, couldn't believe the economics of that situation. If someone
admitted ownership, the fine could be as low as $150 to get back a net
costing $300 or so. (Judges often return net to poachers after they pay
their fines, I was told by another officer at headquarters).
"Bidness-wise" that chap better get a job on land; he has no future as a
striper-poacher.
Officer X saw a broken balloon floating on the surface and motored over to
it, thinking it might be a marker like the small corks or tiny floats
poachers use to mark their nets. The balloon was free floating, but X
looked down into the water and saw an unmarked gill net. He and his
partner picked it up, then found another, and another, etc., and
confiscated them, too. After they pulled in several more nets, they went
back to the place they found the first one; X had marked it on his GPS.
They circled around with grappling hooks and - guess what? - more
unbuoyed, unmarked gill net. Some nets were free-floating; others had
anchors. They soon had so much net in the boat they had to proceed to
shore slowly so they wouldn't swamp their small boat.
As we talked, X admitted the NRP has had trouble with state officials
getting poachers off after the officers have made a good case, "Even
testified AGAINST us," another X told me. That is very demoralizing. Your
own bosses testify against you in court after you've worked hard,
sometimes undercover, to make a case.
"We are getting a lot of illegal net," a supervisor told me, "compared
with past years, it's about the same yardage. They [poachers] are not
getting any more honest as time goes by."
No wonder so many NRP officers support the twin bills in the Maryland
Legislature that would meld the NRP and Park Rangers into the Maryland
State Police - to get the politics out.
Will the NRP ever get free of the DNR crook-protectors? I doubt it.
Government agencies rarely give up a piece of their turf without a fight.


If you are not a comm then you must be for the recs. Greed is the only thing comms are about and therefore they must be dealt with a heavy hand as they do with recs. Do you think the last moratorium was do to recs? There are 100 times more rec striper fishermen now than in the early 80s. It was due to bad management and typically greedy business men who influenced government to look the other way and still do. Get with it man or you'll be looking at another moratorium.

[BigFish]

Ol'Pajamas....you do not clarify which group you side with, and you do not really give any idea of solution other than your attempt to level "all" of the blame at the commercial fisherman. My belief is that both sides have an equal hand in the problem, and among both groups are those that do not follow the letter of the law. They choose to ignore the rules that are in place that, if followed, would benefit all. As I said, I am not a commercial fisherman, simply someone who goes out to enjoy the resources that have been given to us. A beautiful day or night, on the water, and catching some fish and enjoying myself and occasionally, taking a fish home to enjoy (and as I said, I take very few...that is not to say that others should not be able to take what is allowed them by law). It is those in my belief, that skirt the laws and the rules to turn a quick, dishonest buck. We all see it going on and it is up to us as individuals to let them know that what they do is wrong, set them straight and if need be, turn them in to the environmental police. Though these agencies I believe have their problems, we must work with them to see that people who skirt the laws are held accountable. I was not pleased when the state of Mass. went to a two fish at 28" a day limit, I do not believe anyone has the need to take more fish in a day than they can use. There is much gluttony out there both in the recreational ranks and the commercial industry. People who fish recreationally, In my estimation, many of them believe that since they are allowed to take two fish a day do just that.....and much of it will go to waste. Self-restraint and good catch and release practices and policeing others when we see them do wrong can go a long way to helping the resource remain strong in numbers. I do see many people fill their freezers to overflowing for the winter, and come spring, many of them will dispose of much of what they have not eaten do to freezer burn and just the fact that soon they will be able to stock up with fresh fish. I am hoping in the near future the state of Mass will return to a one fish a day limit at 28 inches. I will always believe that one fish a day is more than anyone needs as it will feed a family of four and still have a few filets for the freezer. Need more, go out and get another but to just keep for the sake of "well the state says I can have two so two is what I will take" is preposterous. Just my own opinion folks, agree to disagree is OK with me. I respect others opinions, that is why I asked this question and I look forward to hearing others thoughts.

As far as calling JohnR into question.....you better have all your eggs in one basket before you call him to task. JohnR is far from uninformed and by no means stupid.

['ol pajamas]

I am a rec and completely behind Stripers Forever. If you know how much pocket lining is done my the comms, you will understand why SF must be hard nosed. Politics and comms are in bed together. The majority is the recs and yet we must obey them. On the issue of stripers, Atlantic menhaden and american eels as well some other marine life I think conservation must come down hard on commercial fishing.

It was recs who brought the last moratorium. It isn't recs who are over fishing bunker. It was recs who virtually eliminated Atlantic Salmon. It was recs who over fished scallops on the south shore of long island. This is their track record. I don't cull stripers, recs do. Recs don't look out for me and so I'm not interested in them. I write the politicos and do what I can to keep the environment in check and in the process I keep small business owners in buisiness with my business and that is far more profitable than the over killing of stripers.

[BigFish]

Is it just me or is Ol'Pajamas being a little vague about just about everything? He says he is a 'rec" and then shortly after it seems as if he is leveling his sites at the 'Recs"? Is it just me guys or is Ol'Pajamas talkin' in circles?

I don't mean to sound insulting OP but you are jumping from one boat (issue) to another so fast that I do not really know what it is you are trying to say?

[fishinmedic]

I think Maine has it correct. No commercial fishing for stripers. Keep one fish a day between 20-26 inches. Everyone knows the smaller fish are better to eat. Plus you probably could catch dinner in a very short time fishing. When we are talking about a migratory fish it make no sense to have one state allow commercial fishing like Mass. and then another state protect them.

[striprman]

Doesn't Maine let you keep a fish over 40 inches?

I thought it was 1 fish 22-26 inches or 1 fish over 40 inches.

[fishinmedic]

yes that is correct. I am assuming most people are not going to easily catch a 40 plus

[flatts1]

Wow. It is truly amazing (and scary) how gullable members of Stripers Forever can be.

Ol Pajamas, I'm sorry to have to point this out to you and all of the other Brad Burns groupies out there but the article you posted makes a collasal leap to assuming the nets were set for stripers (there are other fish in the sea) All it really said was that there are presumably illegal gill nets set in the water.

Now I don't think that you will get an argument from anyone that this sort of practice (assuming it is true) is loathful and the perpetrators should be prosecuted to the fullest extent to the law (ditto for rec offenses)

However, to somehow make a connection that this activity is leading to "enormous kill" of stripers is yet another misleading and irresponsible attempt by Stripers Forever to make a case against commercial harvest of striped bass when they simply do not have real facts to make their case.

Further more even if striped bass were the target fish of these netters then these fish would still go against the commercial quota whne they were sold at shore. In other words, this would only affect other commercial fishermen by forcing the price down for stripers and closing the season earlier than expected.

Ol Pajamas, please review the following graph and when you're done wincing please explain to me again why commercial fishermen are the single greatest threat to striped bass (please try to include pertinent facts if possible).

Also, I may be going out on a limb here but I think that maybe this is the sort of thing that JohnR had in mind when he said that Stripers Forever was all about "gimme gimme gimme".

I agree. What a shame too because instead of focusing effort into sustainable uses, Stripers Forever only seeks sole uses. That Sir, by another name is truly called - greed.

Sincerely,
Mike Flaherty
Quincy, MA

P.S.
That's my real name what's yours?

[flatts1]

Originally posted by spence
I've not read anything about stripersforever that would lead me to believe they want to restrict recreational fishing in any way.

Spence, Stripers Forever wants to keep the EEZ closed even though there is no science to support its continued closure (stripers fully recovered since 1995 and now very abundant). They claim that they want to keep it closed so that commercial fishermen won't have more waters available to them to fish.

What Stripers Forever doesn't tell you is that a closed EEZ is closed to both commercial and recreational fishermen.

[BigFish]

I was going to point out the same fact to Ol' Pajamas about the fact that there were simply "nets" in the water, but I felt that given the total mis-direction of his message, and the fact that he kept jumping from, as I said earlier, "one boat to another", I thought I would let it lie. Thanks for bringing it up though, I did enjoy your message. I do believe that Ol' Pajamas is not really fully informed on any of the issues, from either side of the fence. He is just simply spouting out whatever "Stripers Forever" has surgically implanted in his head! I wish you guys could see me right now....I am laughing my butt off after reading Flatts1's response and I got tears running down my face from laughing so hard!

Unless you trade in that "Barney Fife one bullet pistol" and get your hands on a "Rambo machine gun" Flatts1 has you out-gunned Ol' Pajamas so you better go re-arm with credible weaponry and get some facts.

I gotta go wipe away the tears now!

[BasicPatrick]

A few comments,

The last completed survey of MA Rec landings gives the number of fish (keepers) per individual, not per trip at .05 person per year. The average person who fishes for striped bass harvests 1/2 a fish per year. Even with this small number, the Rec harvest is massive.

The MA Commercial quota is a Hard TAC (total allowable Catch)...John R, I agree that 40 fish per day is high but records available to the public showed to the MA SB Advisory panel in 2002-2003 showed less thatn 10 40 fish landings two years ago. Many of these boarts taking 40 fish are splitting the catch between 3 or 4 licenses.

Inside info is that MA will take a hard look at 10 fish on Sunday (to prevcent front loading or stacking fish) and 20 fish the rest of the four open days. This will help to stabilize the price, but wether it is 40 fish or 10 fish, the quota closes and the TAC will not change.

MA is the only state that has a 100% rod & reel commercial fishery...part of the confusion around how the Commercial take of Striped Bass is handled is due to the fact that down Carolina way there is a more traditional commercial effort on the fish (nets, draggers, etc.)

2 fish at 28" is the standard set by the ASMFC (governing Management body) and is here to stay for a while.

[RoccusRuckus]

Interesting FACTS from 2002 (the most recent I could find). Check out how bad us recs mangle our catch!! Yikes!

During 2002, the commercial fishery for striped bass in Massachusetts harvested about 44,897 fish weighing 924,870 pounds.
Total losses due to commercial harvesting (including release mortality) were 54,128 fish weighing 1,011,283 pounds.
The recreational fishery harvested about 309,582 striped bass weighing over 4.3 million pounds.
Total losses due to recreational fishing (including release mortality) were 767,114 fish weighing 8.2 million pounds.
The majority of losses, 93% by number and 89% by weight, was attributed to the recreational fishery.

Above taken from 2002 Massachusetts Striped Bass Monitoring Report (Nelson 2003).

I am not in support of gamefish status.

[fishinmedic]

I cant believe that there are so many fisherman who disagree with what stripers forever is in favor of. Log on to their website stripersforever.org then decide. Is Maine wrong making the sriper a gamefish? That is the question. Is Mass. right not making it a gamefish?