Got in a plover argument last night

[Mr. Sandman]

Went to a dinner party ... all was fine...talking about all kinds of island, boating and fun things then one women started lecturing us on why we are not doing enough to save the plover.

you know the rest...

(deleted because of possible retaliation)

[Mike P]

OK was she driving a Range Rover or one of those Volvo wanna-be SUVs? Just so I know which vehicle to stick the "Piping Plovers Taste Like Chicken" bumper sticker to the next time I'm on the Island.

The "Vineyarders" and Black Dog decals in the back window won't narrow it down nearly enough, tho

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

4) I love birds, really I do, but we live here too and I have as much right as that bird to walk (or drive) the beach as the bird does and frankly I think a 1000 fisherman outweigh 2 birds. We should help them all we can but there has to be a reasonable approach.

I'm not a plover supporter but hey, why don't we just open all closed areas to every retard in a 4wd vehicle, put a Hilton on Nomans, and let the draggers slaughter the closed areas?

There's plenty more seashore other than where they close.
And as far as I'm concerned, they SHOULD allow less beach vehicle traffic, most of you could use the exercise.

[Nebe]

go make a fake plover nest in her front yard and tell her she needs to move off island

[Squid kids Dad]

Mr. Sandman,
Wish I was at that party..

[tattoobob]

If there were more humans on the beach the birds would not suffer from being eaten other animals. People like her have there ideas and they are the only one that others should follow. Once they close a beach there is no foot traffic aloud either. I bet you don't see her out there during beach clean ups and planting beach grass for dune restoration.

[Karl F]

I am going to go through my papers... it will take me a bit to find, but the CCNS has published a paper that claims that ORV's used properly have no impact on Plovers. Also, last year at Sandy Neck, the rangers opened a closed area to the self-contained.. because the fact that with the campers there, the nests were not disturbed by the predators...... biggest danger to plovers.. Racoons, Skunks, Foxes, Coyotes, and developers. How many miles of coastline to Rhody and CT. have??? and how many pairs of nesting plovers do they average per year? Last year we had 19 pair in the ORV corridor at Nauset (just at one MA 4X4 beach!)... more than twice what the whole friggin coastline of CT and RI combined... she sounds typical of the anti-movement, open mouth, empty head.
When I find that document, I will post the document #, you should be able to contact them and order a copy... might take me a bit.

[RoyL]

You should bring her some roasted cornished hens next time you plan to see her....lol

[fishsmith]

Poke that lady in her eye with your fork next time. My hatred for that bird is only rivaled by Rick Pitino. Coyotes and foxes are all over the beach, but its the 4wd's fault.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by tattoobob

If there were more humans on the beach the birds would not suffer from being eaten other animals. People like her have there ideas and they are the only one that others should follow. Once they close a beach there is no foot traffic aloud either. I bet you don't see her out there during beach clean ups and planting beach grass for dune restoration.

I totally agree that half these retards have never done one good thing other than "donating money" so they can get that cute sticker for their car but I'll tell you what, foxes and coyotes on the cape don't have one bit of fear of humans anymore. They'll happily walk right up to that bucket of bait and steal out of it at 3 in the morning.

While it is kinda cute to see a 3lb Red Fox dragging a big ole herring down the beach, its certainly not safe considering they caught 2 in Norton last week that had rabies.

The dog dosen't go out after dark anymore after hearing about that one.

[fishweewee]

Bring some cats to the beach.

Reward 'em for every plover they kill - with a nice fresh salmon dinner.

[DRUMCORPFAN]

jim, next time you go to a dinner party will you ask the host if the woman will be there?

[piemma]

In 1996 the feds had most of the Front closed for the Plovers. So we could get to the SEcond Rip but the Race was closed and all but about 100 yards of the Back was closed.
There was A Golden eagle in residence on the Front and he would sit on a Plove sign and one by one he picked off every little Plover that wandered out of the fenced area. Then the Foxes and Cyotes made short work of the remainder. Yeah, like we were running over the baby Plovers!!!

Friggin' tree hugging woosies. I had a "Piping Plover tastes like Chicken" sticker on my buggy on the cooler and a lady ranger actually gave me a lecture about saving the little birdies.

[outfished]

Now you guys know why a have a 50 cal. mounted on the back of my Hummer Canal Bike! Oh the humanity!

[Swimmer]

First of all SANDMAN thank you for standing up for all of us.

That same lady probably donated to the PETA organization that helped get leg-hold traps banned, which increased 10 fold the amount of forage food, (like racoon, foxes, groundhogs) that coyotes feed on, including them round little plovers. People like your fellow party-goer always take the easy way out and blame the obvious choice the guy with the 4 x 4 who travels the beach fishing. God forbid she actually looked into the problem more deeply and found out she and her ilk contributed to the problem more than any ever could have. In her shallow world I imagine her gene pool as only being puddle deep. The liberals, at least the lazy liberals, who think they are educated or maybe are educated would rather create a new rule than deal with a problem by using the value system in place. Wait till there is 1.2 billion people living on this continent, as in China, or just in this country and then try to convince that mass of humanity a plover is more important than one persons movement from one place to another. With all the money, time, and energy that these people have thrown at the so-called plover problem what they can't admit is there utter failure in the task at hand. I drive down Deluxebury beach backside road and watch four or five teenage girls getting paid 8 to 10 dollars an hour to watch the plover nest and keep traffic going 5 m.p.h. talking to a like amount of teenage boys not doing their job. For all these kids/people new there were no plovers inside the fence. Species sometimes do not survive, trees do get cut down (sometimes old growth), roads get built, and LIKWID those rubbers trees probably dont survive being drained of all their resources that go into making your wetsuits. I jumped out of my truck one morning at High Pines on the backside of Deluxebury Beach and found two of the mangiest most sickly foxes I have ever seen in my life staring at me. They weighed about 2 lbs a piece. If thats what a plover diet does for the foxes I dont see what the fuss is about anyway.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by likwid

I'm not a plover supporter

Are you sure about that?


And as far as I'm concerned, they SHOULD allow less beach vehicle traffic, most of you could use the exercise.

less beach traffic? we've lost enough already, time to start getting back access.

good thing didn't say all of you

beach access being lost is a sore subject, try not to dig the dagger in any further ok

[FishermanTim]

I's the same old NIMBY scenario.
They're all for saving the "animal du 'jour", but if you try to restrict their activity, the read you the riot act.
My best analogy is the "harvesting" of deer to manage herds.
The animal rights activist want the hunting to stop, but when the animals begin invading our neighborhoods becasue their food supply is gone, when we see and hear about animal / human cotact with disasterous results, when we see and hear the results of entire herds starving and malnourished, where are the same people to lend their support?
They're nowhere to be found, because they have found some other "cause of the day".
Most "true" hunters and fishermen are concerned about the plights of animals, we just don't turn into a$$holes about them.
As it's been stated before, the wildlife in the surrounding areas is doing more damage than the humans have. We are limited by the seasons, nature isn't.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

less beach traffic? we've lost enough already, time to start getting back access.

good thing didn't say all of you

beach access being lost is a sore subject, try not to dig the dagger in any further ok

People should be sore about the amount of striped bass there are out there, not getting to them.

I'd rather see Striped Bass #'s the way they were 40 years ago than beach access the way it was 40 years ago.

But will either happen? Not likely.

[Karl F]

Your confusing me likwid.... you've said on another thread that it's OK for the seals to eat the bass, your don't want the bounty back on them, like 40 years ago... close access to people is OK, in your book, so a bird that is no longer endangered, can be wiped out by predators at a more rapid rate........ do you also take Omega3, to support the people draggin all the menhaden out of the food chain for the bass as well?
Bring back the bait, (protect the bunker, herring, etc.), eliminate the seals, the bass population might not just increase, (which it has already a bit), they might actually be more healthy... they are starving for lack of bait, that is the big "bass" problem right now...
Do you fish?

[Swimmer]

True Likwid, about the numbers, but most of the guys I know throw every fish back trying to increase those numbers. I think its great a younger person suc as yourself is this caring. After all you get closer to mother eart than most of us with the diving you do. Most if not all of us are very concerned here, for selfish reasons, and for the good of all.

I am a little disappointed at not getting the blow by blow this winter from you.

[DZ]

Originally Posted by likwid

People should be sore about the amount of striped bass there are out there, not getting to them.

I'd rather see Striped Bass #'s the way they were 40 years ago than beach access the way it was 40 years ago.
But will either happen? Not likely.

You can have all the striped bass in the world but if you don't have the shore/beach access to catch them your point is mute.


Jim,
Way to stand up for what you believe in: now write a letter to the MV paper telling them what transpired at the "dinner Party". I would have loved to be there sipping a martini and heard you put her in her place.

DZ

[likwid]

My reasoning behind wanting the beaches closed is for better research into how to handle the situation between wildlife, beachgoers and the inevitable wasting away of the cape by erosion.

There needs to be a common ground that can be reached between access and wildlife protection, and NEITHER side wants to give away ANYTHING.

Thats the core issue. The fact alone totally off topic that in MY lifetime we very well could run out of oil has me way down lately about how we're not only managing resources but how we manage the amazing areas that we're allowed access to. Anyone who's walked the Audubon sanctuary down on the cape will attest to just how amazingly beautiful that area is without the encroachment of people or vehicles.

The cape isn't there for us to do wtf ever we please with it. If we do that everyone's kids, and their kids won't have it to enjoy like we have. And that goes for fish, birds, deer, turkeys, worms, eels, sharks, etc.

Environment and Wildlife management as it is, is a total goddamn joke in this country, the people who run it only seem to see in black and white and don't find a common ground for both sides to begrudgingly accept.

[likwid]

Off topic:

Originally Posted by Swimmer

I am a little disappointed at not getting the blow by blow this winter from you.

I didn't work in the mountains this winter, Spent November in California (skied) then took a boat from Annapolis to the USVI in December and after that beating my back and wrists were too messed up to try to work up north.

Slowly recovering and enjoying the few very nice days we've had so far this year.

Just delivered the largest sailboat in Padanaram back to Concordia 2 weeks ago from New England Boat Works too.

[Swimmer]

I fish out of Padnaram with a buddy of mine. I am amazed at the nice sailboats that are at anchor in the inner and outer harbor there. I can tell you that in some areas of the cape such as Nauset Light I have seen several hundred feet of lost to nature in the last 35 years. There used to be a small sandwich stand at Nauset that the Whiting family owned. Used to frequent it everyday. My buddies and I used to roam the outer cape and go surfing then at places no one knew of but now are extremely popular places. The bar in Wellfleet on the ocean just up from Newcombs Hollow beach when I was a kid still had dirt on the floor in the head. Now its a wildly popular place. When I was a kid anyone got serve there and I mean everyone. Marconi beach had yet to be born, while Marconi station was there the only beach access was along and old service road along the top of the dunes that was put in place to deliver stuff to the troops in the bunkers that have seen since been removed. We used to surf down the dunes and the n rides waves all day and walk back up the dunes dog tired. I used to travel to North Beach in Chatham before the split. Used to stay in a cabin that disappeared during the bad storm in February, 1978. My opinon is that fxd's do very little damage as compared to mother nature. They do exacerbate what nature does certainly, but it is minor in comparison.

[SeaWolf]

there is one fact i do know about fighting usf&w - their law rules. we may not like it, but they go by the facts presented by their employees' reports. this is especially true on the whole piping plover situation. there are so many states effected by this bird. sure, it is easy to get on the "piping plovers taste like chicken" bandwagon. i know, i used to, but i learned to understand the facts, issues, and future. one thing is that we all need to adapt our fishing around this bird while their nesting season is on us. i know it must be especially hard on the islands and outer cape, but it's a necessary "evil" right now.

the 2003 atlantic plover population count was 1676. the numbers were increasing throught that late 90s and into the new century, but were down from 2002 count of 1690. i did not see the 2004 population report yet. these birds need a couple of things to happen before they are removed from the endanged species act (they are listed as threatened in most states): 1.) the population must hit 2000 breeding pairs; 2.) the population must have a breeding surplus (the fledged chicks must prove signs of sustaining and increasing the population) each year for a period of 5 consecutive years, i believe. now, does this mean we have 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years to go before they reach these numbers, i don't know. I do know that i am watching the numbers, working w/ f&w to build a repor with them to show we are trying to live with these birds. when these birds do reach those milestones and are removed from the endangered species act, the local states enforcement will control beach access, birds protection, etc. i would then turn my fight to try and gain the lost beach access areas taken when this bird first became listed at endanagered. i would also work to try and have a controlled time that when the birds are there, access can be limited.

one thing you must remember is who is fighting for the birds well being - green peace, audubon, etc., all "respected" and prosperous organizations. they pay a lot of money to research for this bird and other issues. they do their homework. meanwhile, fisherman are considered a threat. prove them wrong. do your homework, know the facts, and be prepared to argue your points when someone challenges your views.

[Karl F]

No doc # on that seashore report, it is titled the 1999 ORV impact study... plover's , enviro, all covered they can't pin anything on ORV.... interestly enough biggest problem in plover nests that year... washovers.... Darwin award winners, them plovers... biggest cause of erosion as well .. no chit.
Interesting read, and I do remember that MA Audobon was a little peesed at the time this study was released to the public...

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by SeaWolf

one thing you must remember is who is fighting for the birds well being - green peace, audubon, etc., all "respected" and prosperous organizations. they pay a lot of money to research for this bird and other issues.

Greenpeace?!They're almost as fanatical as PETA!

Resepected.Hardly.

Prosperous.Ya because the same Hollywood types who donate millions to PETA do the same for Greenpeace.

Greenpeace and Audubon.Night and day.

[outfished]

Greenpeace and Audubon.Night and day.[/QUOTE]

Audubon isn't much different than the rest IMO. I read that Mass. Audubon is the only one that does'nt allow hunting on its properties while other states do. Mass. Audubon was also a huge supporter of the anti-trapping laws and bear hunting law changes passed several years ago. Tree huggers is all they are.

[Ed B]

Seawolf gives some good advice and I know Karl is involved with the MBBA. Calling people a bunch of crazy treehuggers, enviro wackos or whatever suits your fancy gets you nowhere. The fact is that when an animal is on the endangered species list, a host of federal laws come into effect to protect it.

If you don't deal with these people that you view as the enemy on a rational level you will be doing more harm than good and give them more justifiable reason in their minds to restrict access. Let's face it, they view most fisherman as a bunch of trash throwing social misfits. The smart thing to do is to support those who take up the cause to be actively engaged like the fishing clubs and buggy associations. Let the people who chose to become knowledgeable on the issues discuss the concerns, and never ever mess with a nesting area.

Like it or not, the state Audobon societies are funded by wealthy and politically connected members in our communities, I recently saw the annual financial report from the RI Audobon Society that they send out to their members and they have assets as I recall in the order of $25 million. I would expect Massachusetts Audobon is many times as big as that. We have to stick up for our rights but we have to work with them.

Ed

[likwid]

Originally Posted by outfished

Audubon isn't much different than the rest IMO. I read that Mass. Audubon is the only one that does'nt allow hunting on its properties while other states do. Mass. Audubon was also a huge supporter of the anti-trapping laws and bear hunting law changes passed several years ago. Tree huggers is all they are.

Whats wrong with supporting something they beleive in?
As far as I'm concerned its a heartless and pathetic method of "hunting" (trapping) Any idiot can put a bear trap out with some bait and come back the next day and have something.

And whats wrong with no hunting on THEIR property? Its no different than a landowner telling you not to hunt on his land.