Striped Bass Commercial Season Ends Early; Fishermen Meet Quota of 802,000 Pounds - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Mr. Sandman · 08-06-2002, 06:32 AM

http://www.mvgazette.com/news/2002/0...ass_season.php

I wish they would just shut it down all together......

Team Rock On · 08-06-2002, 09:13 AM

"Mr. Larsen said if the state were to set a limit of 20 fish per boat instead of 40, the quota wouldn't be taken so quickly."----------------------I'd even like to see it dropped to 10. And how about only giving MA residents MA licenses! I've heard almost half the fish sold come from out of state. Doesn't really make sense

Mr. Sandman · 08-06-2002, 09:31 AM

what do you think the average price per pound was? (ball park)

How many commerical SB MA lic's were sold do you think?

Blitzseeker · 08-06-2002, 09:47 AM

Saw it retailing for $8.99/pound on the Cape last week....not sure what that means for the wholesale price but my guess is no more than $5/pound.

JohnR · 08-06-2002, 09:51 AM

Blitz - figure under $2 per pound is accurate while open.

Mr. Sandman · 08-06-2002, 10:16 AM

I am guessing but lets say 1000 lic's are sold @ 25 bucks per...that is 25K of rev for the state. It probably cost more to do the admin. then these fees produce.

802K lbs probably sold for about 3 bucks /lb which is $2.4 mil. Divide that by the 1000 lic and you get $2400 per lic. IMO the damage cause to the fishery is far greater then the palutry revs and fees this fisher produces. The fisherman probaly spent half that in fuel bait and boat related costs. Sure I am sure a few guys made out big but what is the point????

As much as I dispise selling this fish, next year I may just do it and fish my ass off just to see how much I could $ make and then write a newspaper piece pointing out that this activity does more harm then good and produces little rev/man and no significant rev for the state.

BTW, when was the last time you took 40 big bass in a night? What is wierd about this law IMO is that for 25 bucks I can take 40 fish in a day, for no lic I can take 1. huh? I spend more then 25 bucks in plugs alone for a friday night at the tackle shop. Here is your measly 25 bucks! How many guys take the fish home or sell on a black market?

Make the fee several thousand dollars not some lame-o amount that will invite anyone who wants to take more then one fish to pay 25 bucks. The people in charge are swayed by the commerical people BECAUSE THEY PAY LIC FEES AND THEY THINK BECAUSE THEY PAY THE FEE THEY OWN THE RIGHTS TO THE FISHERY AND THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE THE LAWS GOVERNING IT.

Better yet...Just shut it down and take the $ off the fish's head. Such a grand fish with a dramatic past to see it exploited like this for a couple grand...if that.

DRM · 08-06-2002, 12:37 PM

Actually, due to the inexpensive license, the number of commercials out there is probably even greater than you think. On the bright side, Mr Murphy says fishing should improve greatly now that the commercial season is over.

likwid · 08-06-2002, 02:43 PM

And at the same time, the sale price of fish keeps the number of commercial striper fishers down.

Nobody wants to be pulling 2 or 3 bucks a pound for 40 fish in one night.

Been commercial tuna fishing for a couple years now, and it when it comes down to the end of the season up here, you're in reality not doing so well as non-commercial people would like think.

You almost need to be out every damn day working your ass off fishing to make real money.

If you want a real experience and an opportunity to badmouth commercial fisheries, go out on a commercial lobster boat for a run some time.

Its far more work than you can ever imagine. Yeah, they have haulers, but they don't take lobster out, gauge them, throw them in the bin or over the side, rebait, and get set to reset. Then repeat 200 more times. And never mind doing this during the winter, or dealing with conger eels, sandsharks and whatever else just happens to meander into your traps.

$2400 average per person on bass isn't much for the season, do some random figures on fuel costs, bait costs, time cost, etc. and you'll see the majority was under for the season.

Now I'll guarantee that nobody was fishing stripers exclusively commercially, if they were, well then, they're pretty damn stupid at those figures.

Cheers
Ted

Team Rock On · 08-06-2002, 02:55 PM

We could debate this in circles for months! First I don't think it is about the revenues generated for the state. It's all about what the "experts" decide is a sustainable yield. If you really want to get riled up look into what goes on in Virginia. People like to eat fish, hence a very, very small commercial striped bass fishery. Where do you draw the line? Ban the taking of baitfish for recreational use (artificials work almost as good)? Why not just ban recreational fishing altogether?Ban those plugs with multiple treble hooks? I'd be willing to bet more bass are killed by recreational fishermen than the very limited commercial quota. There's a group in Maryland that wants to ban chumming in the Chesepeake Bay. Their claim is that it pollutes the water! Meanwhile this group trolls for 8 hours a day. Maryland also has a saltwater license. Maybe they will use these funds to figure out which pollutes the water more!
So is it the selling of fish you despise, or just the sale of striped bass? Like I said, where do you draw the line?

Blitzseeker · 08-06-2002, 05:05 PM

John-

You math sounds right. If it is selling for $8.99/lb at the fish market, then my guess is that it wholesales for ~$4.50/lb. The wholesaler is therefore paying the commercial fisherman who makes the catch $2.25/lb or less.

Even at that price, you can see why guys do it. If you've already bought all your gear like all of us, and are going fishing anyway, most of your costs are sunk except the license. Most of us with any sort of clue about striper fishing could clear the cost of the license with no problem at all.

What a waste, though. It's just not for me.

Korey

Blitzseeker · 08-06-2002, 05:06 PM

Just re-reading....if the license is really only $25 then most of us could clear the cost of that the first night!

BasicPatrick · 08-06-2002, 05:15 PM

Mr Sandman,

Here are some facts

1st to commercial fish you need a general commercial licence whic costs from 35 for an individual (all on the boat of in your vehicle if fishing from shore must have the lic.) all the way up to hundreds of dollars to lic your boat as commercial......next you need to get a striped bass license for 30. You may only fish Rod & reel in Ma. We keep it that way because we do not want a more standard commercial fishery with very valuable limited licenses and a "real" business value on the fishery. Rod & Reel commercials are far more ethical (in general) and SB Commercial fishing with Rod & Reel is a traditional Ma culture.

Next, the average price this year was $2, and it never hit $3, even at the Gloucester Fish Auction that traditionaly brings the very best prices.

SB are sold to the dealers wholesale and the standard return for meat of a SB is 40 percent of the whole...meaning 100 pounds of whole SB return 40 pounds of meat.

Most of the Commercial SB fishers want the quota to end b4 the Fall migration begins so we leave those fish alone

One of the main reasons there is a Commercial market is because the General Public owns the resource not the recreational fishing Public. This is why there is room allocated for a commercial fishery...I am proud of the way Ma runs their SB Fishery...it is not perfect but it is better than any other state that I have read about

the current quota of 750,000 pounds (overage and shortfalls are tagged onto the next year) (not done in other states) has been working through out the rebuilding process...I used to be in favor of making SB a gamefish, but that means no one gets to harvest SB and sorry, they are too good on the table.

likwid · 08-06-2002, 05:45 PM

You sit here and talk about 'clearing costs' first night etc.

But in reality, yeah, your rods, your boat are already sunk, but why don't we take it from a reality level, fuel etc.

Do you know your "super secret hotspot" is going to be hot every night to pay for fuel, bait, and TIME? No. You don't.

And as far as DMF goes, why don't you check them out instead of bashing on how much fish they take?

Do you get their newsletters?

Do you talk to the DMF people?

The typical answer is no.

Clammer · 08-06-2002, 07:33 PM

little do you really know/////////////
the real good commercial guys do very well
there are more fish in mass Than I ever thought possible, most shore fisherman don.t see it neither does the weekend troller
some of you would be shocked to see the fish that come in day after day from the same fisherman, do some math and they make big money/////////////

I,m not getting into a pissin match with anybody,but what bothers me is every state plays with a differert set of rules

some states ---no sales,other 40 per boat,others 4 per man
then different sizes---- traps smaller fish
maryland /virginia hammer the real small fish

it should be that we all play with the same cards

we are throwing fish back that others are selling.at least 30 years ago we all had the same rules,except maryland,again with being allowed to sell very small fish

just my 2 cents ,been in the house too long/////////////////

capesams · 08-06-2002, 07:59 PM

Sometime if you get the chance ask someone from the dmf[mass] how many lb's of sb do the rec. fisher's take vs. the HOOK & LINE com. take. I was told the rec.'s take about THREE time's that of the com. guy's.............think about it.............now who's killing all the fish?..............this info. come's right from the horse's mouth. I'm just passing it along.

JohnR · 08-06-2002, 08:45 PM

Ahh, we haven't had a good & lively rec -v- comm debate in a little while

...

There are 2 primary arguments in favor of the commercial fishing of striped bass in Mass: 1 - the desire of commercial fishermen to make money on them and 2 - the demand of a market place for them in restaraunts and at the market (OK, I'll give you 3 - the commercial guys like usually like fishing for them too and many would still chase them if there was no monetary reward).

The rec anglers far outweigh the comms in numbers of people, in money generated for the local economy - (not even including the charters) through everything from tourism to purchasing and maintaining boats, buying tackle, and even the odd website (although we ain't makin' any money here

). And it is an often serious, even evangelical pursuit by those of us recs that fish for them. Many of us arrange significant parts of our lives around fishing for stripers to extract what we do in quality of life and hapiness (or sickness depending on point of view). Also, many people use it as a small and for some, a larger portion of our diet.

So who should have more of a claim to a sustainable percentage of the fish? I'd say the largest group should have the largest access to the fish (and currently does). In my opinion, that doesn't mean to cut off the commercial guy at his knees. But to allow a sensible allocation of fish and a strong penalty for abusing the rules. That penalty should apply to both recs & comms that break the rules too (although that should be another thread).

The thing that peesses me off the most about the commercial fishing is the bag limit. You get a decent group of boats hammering 40 decent fish per day, day in and day out, you make a lousy price for the fish. Supply & demand. I see someone getting 1.65 a pound because the market is flooded a bit of a waste when less of a glut of fish might yield better prices and reduced pressure on the fish. The recs already give a reduced pressure on the fish because we are held at one per day instead of two in a slot or two over say 34 inches per day. Mass's DMF "Voluntarily" restricts the amount of fish the rec anglers can have to less than what we are alotted by the ASMFC. A couple years ago when everyone freaked that coast wide, the recs would have to give back some of their allocation, Mass wouldn't have needed to as it already had reduced the rec take to lower levels than what was required. Just recently when DMF dangled an extra fish in front of us recs and had us salivating - they also danglend an extra hundred something thousand pounds for commercial too.

Clammer - you're correct....

CS - the number of recs killing 3x as many fish through C&R mortality and throwing some meet on the dinner table (and thru pure stupidity) is probably fifty or maybe a hundred times the number of ACTIVE commercial fishing guys - not the guys that have the bass endorsement on their license but the ones that actually bring more than a couple per year to the market. I'd say the large populace should generally outweigh the small # of commercial BASS guys.

Likwid - what do you mean? Just some clarification...

Quote:

And as far as DMF goes, why don't you check them out instead of bashing on how much fish they take?

OK - enough for right now....

capesams · 08-06-2002, 09:35 PM

I like my lobster cold , some like it hot , that's what make's the world go round. The thing's I've heard an seen goin on at the shore front. Thing's will never change when people an money are involved........an politics too................let's kiss an make up an go fishin. life's to short.

likwid · 08-07-2002, 01:02 AM

John: alot of people go through their lives thinking that DMF is only there for the commercial fishermen, when infact they see everyone's needs and takes them all with a grain of salt before they make their decisions.

All of the guys that I know who work for DMF have all been part of both groups at one point or another (duh) for quite some time now, and really know how it works.

A prime example of bagging on DMF are alot of these *wildlife protection groups* who manage to do more harm than good. But hey, they see the world in their own light.

I don't know of any decisions made by them that I wouldn't agree with concerning both commercial or rec fishing, they've been there, they know the deal, they know how to act accordingly.

And is there any way for the email notification thing to be set to default off? It's really annoying.

MikeF · 08-07-2002, 06:12 AM

This has been an interesting season. Due to the warm water most of the shore based comms I know have done very poorly.

If the info I got was correct, the majority of the fish brought to market this year were taken far offshore in the EEZ. Funny thing is its illegal to fish there for striped bass.

I think there may be some basis to these claims since some of the comms, who actually depend on fishing to make a living, are proposing that the comm limit be dropped from 40 fish a day to 20 or 25. This is to make it less profitable for the boats that illegally fish the EEZ. Many of the Cod comms, because of the recent restriction squeezes, re-outfitted and are now targetting stripers, at least for the open season.

Another annoyance for the person making his living commercial fishing, is the growing number of casual comms. The guys who are teachers who the summers off or guys who take a months vacation and casually comm fish. These guys aren't doing it for a living, they are just trying to have fun and suppliment the cost of the trip by selling stripers.

Also many of the guys comm fishing off of MA are from NJ, NY, CT, RI and even VT. The difference in cost between the resident licencse and non-resident license is far too small in my opinion.

If I go duck hunting in Maine or some other nearby state I expect to pay 4 or 5 times as much for a license as the residents. Why do out of state comms get MA licenses for around twice the cost of a MA resident comm license.

Just a few points to ponder.

JohnR · 08-07-2002, 08:07 AM

Likwid - I realize that DMF is good for all and that certain amounts of their commercial license receipts also get applied for Federal Rec matching dollars. I also understand that they are even better towards rec interests now under Diodati than they were under Coates. Diodati has a better definition of "Fair" in my mind and the minds of many anglers. So I won't knock DMF too hard.

Historically, they have been far more commercial bent but now they are more balanced.

And yes, the ultra radical wildlife protection groups are a real problem. They want to deny everyone access, shore, boat, you name it. If they can't close an area, close the parking. To hell with the traditional groups that want to access the resource for whatever reason. Example - The Mass Audobon has that land on Cutty that effectively shuts down access for the historical shore fisherman on the west end of the island unless you walk the rocky beach...

Quote:

And is there any way for the email notification thing to be set to default off? It's really annoying.

In you User Control Panel (user cp), under "edit options" is a selection for "Use email notification by default". You had it on, I turned it off for you. If it happens again, just check that setting....

Mike - if they are in the EEZ - they SHOULD be caught and fined. If it's anyone, comm or rec, they should pay for it. That's one reason some had a strong push last year to open up the EEZ to recs & comms, to make it "legit". And yes, there should be a costlier license for non-residents and probably a more limited entry into the fishery too.

likwid · 08-07-2002, 08:17 AM

Thanks for turning off the e-mail notification...

And on Cuttyhunk, I've dragged quite a few cow bass (with much grumbling) back up the road around the island, or back up the trails past where the windmilll was, and never had anyone say a word to me, except ask what I caught the fish on....

*shrug*

Good to see that some groups can't attempt to rule over places with an iron fist like they'd like to. But I think the islanders/old charter boys have a bit more say around there than the Audubon will ever have...

Also if you've ever been the to Audubon sanctuary off 6 down on the cape and walked out to the flats... that place just oozes incredible fly fishing....

What I'd give to spend a few weeks down there with the fly rod this time of year on some warm days....

Mr. Sandman · 08-07-2002, 08:27 AM

The issue is mainly about money and who benifits, not fish. Thats the problem.

1) The argument that "it is a tradition to comm fish for SB" really pushes my button. Give me a break! Sorry, commerical fisherman do not have some God given right to take whatever they want. You want tradition, there was a time when striped bass and even lobster were considered a trash-fish and no one wanted them. Times change, get over it. The picture below was tradition too. It is long overdue to end it.

2) Serious Cost-benifit analysis have shown, the public benifits far more from rec fisherman vs commerical. The amount of money that rec fisherman spend on boats, motors, gear and charter fees dwarfs the entire commerical industry. The funny thing is the commerical guys love to say..rec 's take 3x more the commerical....when you figure out how many fish per rec is actually taken....it is something like < 1 fish per man per year (I can't recall the exact # but it is very small). There are just millions of fisherman. (most don't catch ANY bass in a year) In order to catch that 1 fish, the fisherman spends in some cases thousands each year that support working men and their familys in the boating and fishing industries. The simple difference is rec fishing supports 100's of thouasnds of people in diverse businesses while commercial sb fishing is all about cataching as many fish as fast as you can for $$ that supports the greedy few.

3) Commerical Lic fees are a complete joke it may as well be a free-for-all. They need to add a few more zeros on the end of those fees.

4) The $/lb is a joke too. Why do you even bother? if you say the price was 2 bucks/lb then only $1.6 mill were taken for the 802K lbs. And if you say there are that many lic's the $/fisherman is really a minimum. The bottom line is that the bulk of the 1.6million is headed to the pockets of a few big guns. This is doing little for socity and doing harm to the fish.

5)commerical fishing is all about $, that is why they call it "commerical". Greed also plays a big part in the activity. The "its mine" attitude has got to stop. During the days of no sb fishing...the gerneral fishing industry survived. You simply don't NEED the striped bass as a commerical fish. The reason there are so many fish today ...is BECAUSE THERE WERE RESTRICTIONS IN YEARS PAST. I just don't buy the fact the rec fishing does nearly the damage.. how exactly do you estimate the rec catch? How much $ and time does the average rec fisherman spend fishing to catch a single fish?

I do agree with the commerical guys that the state by state regs differ and it is unfair to those who do conserve. But the goal is not to catch the fish here so the "other guys" in other states can't. The Fed's are not going to get involved, it is a state matter and we are going to have to live with it.

The goal is to preserve the fishery while getting as much public benifit as possible from the fish that ARE taken. Commerical sb fishing does neither.

Last year I think I took home maybe 5 bass all year. The amount I caught was maybe 8-10X that many. And I fished a lot by rec standards. I bet I spent 5-7K on fishing realted activitys last year. (boat expenses, fuel, hotels, food/resturants/ tackle, a couple charter trips ect) . Now lets assume the you stop all sb fishing. Who feel pain more, the thousands of people supporting the rec industry, or the commerical guy who can fish for alternate fish? BTW, what is the commerical guy doing now? Is he starving? Come on, this is a no-brainer. These commerical guys are like dealing with a truckers union. They think they own the road.

Oh what the hell.......
If you can't beat-em join-em: Since the lic fee is a complete non-issue, next season I plan to get a commerical sb lic and I urge all out you "sport" guys who want to take all you can to do the same . IMO, this is nothting more then a cheap workaround to current catch limits. You can read about my experience next season at this time.

I have said enough on this topic. (EOM)

Saltheart · 08-07-2002, 10:27 AM

One of the problems is the number of casual coms who get the license so they can keep the commercial limit of forty fish but sell none. It all goes in their own freezers and never gets counted towards the quota. I bet twice as much fish gets caught and not counted this way in MA as gets caught and sold and counted. The problem is even worse with Fluke and Tog. The guys I know who buy the license are after Fluke and tog for their freexers. None gets counted towards a commercial quota even though they catch to the commercial limit. . They only chase stripers when the fluke and tog are closed. Its all legal so i don't blame them for obeying the law to their own benefit. Lots of loopholes in the law like this need to be closed.

Just to make it clear , I'm not against commercial fishing at all. Whatever the law allows , I think the people should maximize their catch. I'm just against the loopholes that allow overfishing above the annual quotas.

Saltheart · 08-07-2002, 10:31 AM

That Picture is famous. Its a still pic from a series of pics. After the pickup is full , they leave the rest on the beach to rot. I've seen the whole sequence and it'll make you sick to see more left behind than taken to market.

To be fair , its an old pic. I doubt anyone would do that anymore.

likwid · 08-07-2002, 11:18 AM

You have to remember when you look at pictures like that from the heydey of fishing...

My dad used to go out when i was about 4 or 5 for a few hours in fall and fill a trash barrel to overflowing in the Mackenzie with codfish just outside of Plymouth Harbor and that'd be it for the rest of the winter... (Boy was that a happy Siberian Shepherd we had getting all those Cod bodies to chow on)

I'd like to see one person do that today...

We've learned from our mistakes and I don't expect that would ever happen again...

And if it did, I'm sure who did it would be caught and hung by all of us for that matter

flatts1 · 08-07-2002, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BasicPatrick
1st to commercial fish you need a general commercial licence whic costs from 35 for an individual (all on the boat of in your vehicle if fishing from shore must have the lic.) all the way up to hundreds of dollars to lic your boat as commercial......next you need to get a striped bass license for 30.

BP,

Am I reading your post correctly?

For as little as $65/year, I can call myself a commercial fisherman and take up to 40 SB/day, while traditional recreational fishermen may only take 1/day, albeit smaller.

If this is the case, it sounds like I can get a comm license and then decide to fill my own freezer with SB as well as the freezer of my family and neighbors rather than sell them to strangers.

If this is true then I don't think it is a far stretch to basically consider the SB comm license as a defacto recreational saltwater fishing license. Afterall, the above scenario is what I do when I go cod fishing. Seems like the only difference is that the state has its hand out when fishing for SB but not other species.

For good or ill, the concensus seems to be that there is squat money to be made selling SB. Economically speaking this is either because there is too much supply driving the price down OR there is not enough demand to support a higher price. It seems clear that the problem here is really on the DEMAND side. I say this because otherwise, there would be some sort of outcry not to shutdown the comm season tomorrow because businesses (restaurants, grocers, etc) would be significanty hurt.

Also, when comm fishing from boat, does the boat need to be commercially "licensed" as well?

Finally, how does it work if I had a comm license with a SB endorsement and then I went fishing on a boat (see above) with some friends that weren't licensed commercially. Could I personally still take 40 SB/day or would the fact that I am with non-comms preclude me from fishing commercially.

Mike

likwid · 08-07-2002, 01:57 PM

So, getting a commercial license to fish recreationally just to take more fish...

Does that make you justified? Or just greedy?

The ONLY fish that fills my freezer if fresh tuna, and thats given away/consumed rather quickly.

And I spend a hell of alot more time/effort/money than it takes to fish stripers...

I'm sorry, but I don't need to have a freezer packed with fish all winter to live just because the opportunity to do so is there.

(note: my father did the cod because of money concerns at the time... it was a cheap way to have food on the table)

JohnR · 08-07-2002, 02:08 PM

Likwid, I plan to put more cod in the freezer because I allready buy alot for my family to eat, but within the rec limits...

Flatts - I think you were too litteral there, the commercial license is for fish that legally must be sold at the market, not for keeps. As for license in a boat, I think everyone fishing needs the license but there is still a limit of 40 per boat.

Quote:

For good or ill, the concensus seems to be that there is squat money to be made selling SB. Economically speaking this is either because there is too much supply driving the price down OR there is not enough demand to support a higher price. It seems clear that the problem here is really on the DEMAND side. I say this because otherwise, there would be some sort of outcry not to shutdown the comm season tomorrow because businesses (restaurants, grocers, etc) would be significanty hurt.

I don't think ANY commercial fisherman can make any kind of a living fishing for stripers, not in New England. Many of these people would ordinarily fish for something else concurrent with fishing for bass or for some species at different times of the year. There is also a lot of people that get the license to offset their fishing costs (which only go up if they're trying to get a bunch of fish) and others get a license, even though they don't sell fish, to prove they are a traditional license holder in case licenses are no longer offered or are curtailed. I'm not sure but I think that already you need to have already had a striped bass comm license in order to get one - Anyone know if new people were still able to apply and receive licenses this year?

flatts1 · 08-07-2002, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by likwid

The ONLY fish that fills my freezer if fresh tuna, and thats given away/consumed rather quickly.

likwid,

The Cod I mentioned goes rather quickly too. Not to brag but everyone loves my chowder. Come to one of my MSBA pregame BBQs and you will see why - because I serve it there sometimes (guess my guests are greedy too).

How is your stocking up of Tuna any different than my stocking up of Cod. Isn't that just being wee bit hypocritical.

To each his own.

Peace,
Mike

TheSpecialist · 08-07-2002, 02:51 PM

Saltheart I beg to differ about the people catching and keeping 40 stripers, and then not selling them. When I went out with Gary Corsetti there were at least 10-15 other boats out there with us. Not one of those boats caught 1/20th the amount of fish we caught. Also every fish we caught was a commercial keeper except maybe 2. Most people out there on boats don't catch near the amount of quality fish that commercial guys catch. The only exception is a person who was a former commercial and is a recreational or charter guy. The guys with boats either catch alot of mid or small sized fish, or tons of schoolies, or a couple of fish. Read all the reports from the people on this site, see how many are catching 40+ 36" fish in a trip. The commercial rod and reel guys are not hurting the striped bass any more than the recs are. The guys that are killing the stripers are the draggers, and the guys down south. I don't begrudge these rod and reel commercials one bit.