Mortality Large vs. Small??

[BigFish]

I see statistics on mortality for released schoolies and many folks believe many of those C & R schoolies die within hours of being released! How many believe that the large or "Trophy" fish being released survive or is the mortality rate of these larger fish alot higher due to the length of the battle???

[Sweetwater]

I think the smaller the fish, the lower the mortality rate simply because they are brought to shore or boat faster and build up less lactic acid. Smaller fish are less likely to "inhale" a plug or bait and don't get hooked as deeply. Also, lighter fish are easier to handle when bringing on board, removing hooks, and releasing so they don't get banged around as much.

How many times have you had to revive a 24" fish compared to a 44" inch fish?

[Swimmer]

How come I don't see any of the floaters if they are dying?

[SAUERKRAUT]

I stick a tag in about a dozen fish a year. The above tag went in two nights ago at in a 17 lb. plus fish when Numbskull was around the corner and couldn't criticize me.

So, a lightly hooked fish, a quiet low energy beach, a nice relaxed patient fish, tagged, released, it just saunters away. Bullsh. that they die! I have had many tag returns...some on huge fish that I had to release in storm surf where I had to lay them in undertows and receding waves to get them back in the water.

I am sure I do not have a 100% release survival rate. I have picked up some of my releases, floating and belly up after the try. However, invariably, these kills which I have created were invariably bait, gut, heavy or deep hooked fish, or very warm water, and long out of water exposure times. And usually a combination of many of these factors all in unasyn. I too have to live and learn the hard way.

But the idea of "huge" release mortality argument against the hook, C&R fisherman is pure bunk, and it is the argument that the commercial striped bass fishery industry uses to justify their kill against the recreational fishery. And remember: the commercial fisherman will be culling their catch, and releasing their "shorts", far more likely, statistically, using bait than artifical lures (and certainly lures with barbs crimped).

Freshwater fish are wimps compared to the survival strength of hook striped bass. Yet, every single healthy and well regulated freshwater fishery is managed with C&R.

Make this public resource, striped bass a gamefish for the 98% of the public who demand a restored, healthy, and no longer threatened fishery.

End of rant. Thank you for the opportunity.

[SurfCaster413]

The only fish I have had die on me where scoolies that inhaled the plug down so deep the second they are out of the water you see blood coming out of the gills. I know right then this isn't gonna be good

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by BigFish

I see statistics on mortality for released schoolies and many folks believe many of those C & R schoolies die within hours of being released! How many believe that the large or "Trophy" fish being released survive or is the mortality rate of these larger fish alot higher due to the length of the battle???

Larry, if you have seen statistics you would know that the mortality rate for released bass is estimated 8%......less on plug caught fish. 8% is a far cry from "many" so why would you propagate this tired rationalization to kill fish? There are kids alive today who might buy your plugs someday.........if we leave them something to fish for.

What people "believe" has more to do with threads like this than actual facts.

Here are some facts.....

usquehanna Flats Catch-and-Release Fishery
The rising popularity of catch-and-release fishing lead to the development of catch-and-release fishery in the upper portion of Chesapeake Bay known as the Susquehanna Flats. This activity developed despite regulations that prohibit catching or attempting to catch striped bass in areas designated as spawning rivers and areas during the period March 1 through May 31. A workgroup comprised of stakeholders was formed by the Fisheries Service to investigate what might be done to provide better recreational fishing opportunities in those areas without impacting the spawning stock or the reproductive ability of striped bass. The workgroup recommended that the Fisheries Service design and conduct a study that would determine the mortality of striped bass associated with catch-and-release fishing on the Susquehanna Flats.
Over a five week period in April and May 1998, three 2-day trials were conducted on the Flats. Participating anglers were instructed to use single hooked artificial lures. Fish were marked as deep or shallow hooked, transported and held for three days as in the other striped bass studies.
Two size groups of fish were sought for these experiments: less than 24 inches and greater than 24 inches. This size delineation was selected because mortality data for striped bass greater than 24 inches caught at low water temperatures in fresh water did not exist in the scientific literature.
The results showed that water temperature greatly influenced release mortality of striped bass caught on the Flats. Mortality was 0.15% at temperatures of 57-59°F, 4.2% at 61-62°F and 16.4% at 64-71°F. There was no difference in mortality between large (>24") and small (<24") striped bass at these low temperatures. More than 95% of the fish caught on the flats in this study were small males.

[Slipknot]

Water temp. is also a factor
but I feel stripers are pretty tough fish as far as survival. As long as you give a cow enough time to recover and they'll let you know when it's time, they live just fine like SK said. If a schoolie didn't get a hook in the gill or something like that it will swim away just fine. I don't think we as recs kill anywhere near the amount killed as bycatch from netters and draggers.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by SurfCaster413

The only fish I have had die on me where scoolies that inhaled the plug down so deep the second they are out of the water you see blood coming out of the gills. I know right then this isn't gonna be good

By study, those fish have a >50% chance of surviving if released.

Striped bass eat spiny things. Their gills undoubtably suffer damage, and certainly they have evolved to deal with this. Also, just like us, they have a clotting system to keep them from bleeding to death. Water also dilutes blood and makes things look worse than they are.

Let the fish go, give it a chance. I have caught a healthy 14lb bluefish with an entire severed gill arch protruding from under its gill cover.....long ago scarred and healed. The fish fought like hell. I'm sure someone assumed that fish was a goner when they threw it back. They were wrong.

[BigFish]

Kids....no place in my post did I "propogate the killing of fish"! My post was simply started, thinking about when folks release truly large fish....fish over 25 pounds lets say! Of course the larger the fish it makes me wonder how many of them actually survive and are we just letting them go to waste on the bottom of the ocean??? I applaud folks who catch a great fish and release it....in fact if you know me I am basically a catch and release fisherman! I only keep 8 or 10 fish a year!!! So please folks for the sake of this discussion...lets not put words in my posts that are not there....K??

[BigFish]

After further reading Numbsculls post again I resent all that George staets as far as I am concerned and take it as an insult!! I do not propogate the killing of fish George and as far as my plug sales that has nothing to do with this discussion and I resent that you stated that perhaps it does!!

[BigFish]

May I also mention that I continue to disagree with the so-called "authorities" on the catch and release percentages......I think the percentage of mortality on released fish is alot better than the "estimated" 8%. I have never seen more than 1 or 2 of all the fish I release in a given season have any problem and that is only due to taking a plug too deep....which does not happen often!

[Slipknot]

I guess I missed something
I didn't see anyone put words in your post

I only keep 1-2 fish a year

I have let go hundreds of large bass
some I don't even take from the water, it's easy with a single hook, then I hold the tail and revive and release, no way that fish dies, maybe of old age or a week later to a commercial but not from me catching it.


I think large have as much chance as a schoolie after a fight as long as you don't mistreat either one. Does that answer your point?

[BigFish]

I find it funny how people exaggerate what the actual thread starting post is about???

[Slipknot]

I see now, I never saw THAT reply by NS, I was replying at the same time then I read yours. sorry

Larry, relax it's the internet, maybe he read it wrong
people make mistakes and I have no idea what is going on here

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by BigFish

May I also mention that I continue to disagree with the so-called "authorities" on the catch and release percentages......I think the percentage of mortality on released fish is alot better than the "estimated" 8%. I have never seen more than 1 or 2 of all the fish I release in a given season have any problem and that is only due to taking a plug too deep....which does not happen often!

right, if I recall correctly, they did a study of a mess of fish in an enclosure, caught and released and determined mortality.

But like you said, I bet it's closer to 2% than 8. In nature other factors are involved and they don't know what precentage is fishing bait or plugs/jigs/flys etc.

Gut hooked fish tend to die but plenty of them live, even with a leader hanging out. The so called "authorities" might tend to skew numbers how they wish.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Larry, if you have seen statistics you would know that the mortality rate for released bass is estimated 8%......less on plug caught fish. 8% is a far cry from "many" so why would you propagate this tired rationalization to kill fish? There are kids alive today who might buy your plugs someday.........if we leave them something to fish for.

What people "believe" has more to do with threads like this than actual facts.

Here are some facts.....

usquehanna Flats Catch-and-Release Fishery
The rising popularity of catch-and-release fishing lead to the development of catch-and-release fishery in the upper portion of Chesapeake Bay known as the Susquehanna Flats. This activity developed despite regulations that prohibit catching or attempting to catch striped bass in areas designated as spawning rivers and areas during the period March 1 through May 31. A workgroup comprised of stakeholders was formed by the Fisheries Service to investigate what might be done to provide better recreational fishing opportunities in those areas without impacting the spawning stock or the reproductive ability of striped bass. The workgroup recommended that the Fisheries Service design and conduct a study that would determine the mortality of striped bass associated with catch-and-release fishing on the Susquehanna Flats.
Over a five week period in April and May 1998, three 2-day trials were conducted on the Flats. Participating anglers were instructed to use single hooked artificial lures. Fish were marked as deep or shallow hooked, transported and held for three days as in the other striped bass studies.
Two size groups of fish were sought for these experiments: less than 24 inches and greater than 24 inches. This size delineation was selected because mortality data for striped bass greater than 24 inches caught at low water temperatures in fresh water did not exist in the scientific literature.
The results showed that water temperature greatly influenced release mortality of striped bass caught on the Flats. Mortality was 0.15% at temperatures of 57-59°F, 4.2% at 61-62°F and 16.4% at 64-71°F. There was no difference in mortality between large (>24") and small (<24") striped bass at these low temperatures. More than 95% of the fish caught on the flats in this study were small males.

All he did was ask a question
maybe you took it differently than he posted it.
what are you trying to say?
I am dumb

[CowHunter]

I think water temp is the biggest factor, cold oxygenated water is key.... I donated a few fish to the aquarium in Norwalk last year, 2 of them over 40lbs. I donated fish as far north as from the cape and as far south as Virginia Beach. All my fish spent hours in my front fish box with no pump, just me replacing buckets of water. The water sloshing was enough... Those fish are much more hardy than people think.... Another important factor is th air bladder, if the fish is reeled in from deeper water you have to stick em... Never happens off the surf... Even gut hooked fish survive. I noticed if you get a downward puncture at the base of the throat you can hit an artery and they bleed out, think thats the biggest factor to mortality, heart is right there. Ive caught fish that have had severed, healed gills, they were fine...

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by BigFish

I see statistics on mortality for released schoolies and many folks believe many of those C & R schoolies die within hours of being released! How many believe that the large or "Trophy" fish being released survive or is the mortality rate of these larger fish alot higher due to the length of the battle???

I'm sorry to piss you off, Larry, but whatever the intent your lead in sentence sets up an unsupported pretense that what many folks (wrongly) believe is correct....i.e., that "MANY" fish die after release.
You then use that pretext as a lead into an apparent rhetorical question (I say that because the sentence conveniently contains a supporting rationalization for one answer) that begs to justify killing breeder fish.

Is it unfair then to read your initial post as...."Yup, Larry knows the statistics and they show, as we all know, that most small released fish die and furthermore, as Larry points out, the larger fish are even more tired so surely there is no point in releasing them" ?

Obviously, your subsequent posts make it clear that was not your intent.

As for your question.......there is no evidence that larger fish fair more poorly. There IS evidence that fish deeply hooked with J-hooks do the worst (but still survive 1/2 the time even in the worst conditions). Obviously large fish are more often caught on bait, and more often gut hooked since they can more easily swallow the large baits.
There is evidence that the length of the fight does NOT effect the short term mortality. There is evidence that fish caught by experienced fishermen fair better. http://www.laterallineco.com/fishing...hards_1996.pdf
There are concerns that released fish suffer some growth retardation that may worsen survival and breeding success down the road.

So again, I am sorry to misread your intent. I am not sorry, however, for trying to put a nail in all the misconceptions people use to feel better about killing large breeder bass. Together (even at 8%) we kill plenty of them practicing C & R. Killing them intentionally for food (but really for trophies/pictures/fame/money/tournaments/etc) should, I feel, be severely restricted. The fact that I still kill fish for my own purposes practicing C&R does not help my credibility on this issue, unfortunately. I recognize it is a public resource and other people may fairly want to use the fish differently.

[ivanputski]

I always wondered how long a fish lives, and how many reproductive cycles it has left in it once it hits 50 pounds... do they all just keep growing and living to become 75 pound fish? what is the life expectancy of a bass? heres a thought to ponder:

Imagine you caught 2 fish tonight, both are females...one 28 inch, one is a 50 pounder. you HAVE to keep only one, and release the other with specific intentions of the betterment of the species... which one would you release? Which fish would go one to reproduce more?
Does the samller fish better the species by reproducing for more years, or does the 50 have "50 pounder" genetics?

Interested in your thoughts ...

[RIROCKHOUND]

OK.
8% is easy for me to believe.

For every conscientious angler like everyone at S-B.com, there are thousands of bass gut hooked on hooks with worms and clams, fish shaken off the hook and kicked down the rocks/beach. held for 10's of minutes to be weighed and measured.

Does it mean we should all stop fishing?
Heck no, but it needs to be factored in.

1@ 36".

[Sea Dangles]

Is it the same for fluke?

[BassDawg]

LARRY, lighten the EFFF up!

numby was only bringing TRUTH to your
simplistic generalization~~~ "many", "large"??

both are very subjective by definition,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

25#'s is NOT large, imho~~
8% is NOT many, as well~~

length of battle has far less to do with survival rate than water temps. soooooo your general supposition does NOT apply. it's fine to go ahead and slant your question, propose opinion; however, why not embrace the numbers instead of "resenting" them. Georgy was only brangin' you sum FACTS.

lastly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Larry, you keep 8-10 stripers a yr and call that C&R??? i keep 2-4, TOPS!! perhaps more this year, should i be blessed with sumthin' LGE enough for the Team Board? but i will still try to limit it to no more than 5, counting ALL tournies for 2010. just my attempt to limit KILL, unless it has VALUE.

likewise,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the fact that we HAVE schoolies, trophies, med, lge, and all sizes inbetween proves that C&R is working to some extent, no? sure i've had to go back in an get the ones that turn belly-up after a concerted revival effort by man and prey, and it pains me every time. so if your question is how many of them were schoolies, and how many of them were lge? of the (4) in 5 yrs, way less than 8% of mine, 3 were over 30#, hooked DEEP (2), released in AUG water, and all of them fed my neighbors quite happily. and if your question is what happened to them AFTER? hard tellin', not knowin' as it is a rhetorical querry; but they shore went deep and they went in a hurry~~ "no worse for the wear", from my perspective.

not trying to stir the BF pot,,,,,,,,just trying to shed a li'l light, m'man.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Is it the same for fluke?

I think higher than 8% for fluke.
Different argument. no need to start that in this thread...

[JohnnySaxatilis]

Originally Posted by ivanputski

Imagine you caught 2 fish tonight, both are females...one 28 inch, one is a 50 pounder. you HAVE to keep only one, and release the other with specific intentions of the betterment of the species... which one would you release? Which fish would go one to reproduce more?

The 50 deffinately, becuase it carries about a gagillion more eggs than a 28" female, there fore there's a ton of more potential for new fish.

That's the catch 22 (no pun intended) with keeping a 50, its much better for the species if you let her go, but if you didnt have a camera or noone else with you, would you let your fish of a lifetime go, or haul that fat be-ach back to the car, take it to the tackle shop and show it off?

luckily i only catch schoolies....

[HESH2]

fishing barbless standing in waiste deep to chest deep water releasing everything.no gill ot gut hook ups,just grab leader and 1 quick twist on single hook lure and fish are good to go.feel my releases are 100% survived.lets look at gill nets and herring boats bye catch thousands of stripers killed.alot of bs with all the different #'s.