AYC: To seal or not to seal

[Jigman]

The question of sealing AYC came up in this thread: http://www.striped-bass.com/vbulleti...5&pagenumber=1 Some good comments by Habs and Capesam. Figured I would bring up the subject here and see what others think.

I've done it both ways. Had some that I sealed where the paint bubbled up, even a couple that did not see water. If I understand Capesam right, probably due to sap in the wood. I've done a bunch that were not sealed and had no problems with those plugs. I was leaning towards not sealing this stuff cause that is one less step and sealing can be a pain. A gent on another site who has used this stuff for 20 years noted that he does not seal it anymore. I'm no wood expert, so I sure there are things that I am not considering.

Just wondering what others do with this stuff. Do you seal it or not? And why?

Jigman

[MAC]

Nope, I don't seal it.

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

Jigman the thing about cedars that makes them good eterior woods is their natural oils.,which can also cause paint adesion problems. the other thing is that all woods will absorb moiture thru its end grain. by sealing the wood you will lessen this problem. the guy you mentioned on the other site, does he use water based or oil based paints. i use oil based primer and oil based paints and haven't had a problem with any paint peeling . i use AYC, maple , cherry birch, poplar and mahagony, depending on the plug. take a piece of wood weigh it soak it in water then weigh it again see what happens.

[Jigman]

LI, I believe he is using Rustoleum spray paints.

Another question along the same lines. How does storage of the wood come into play. For example, I keep the AYC in the garage. Plugs are brought inside while the primer or paint dries. Also clear coat (Systems Three) inside. Could this also cause some paint adhesion problems? I'm thinking in summer (I in KY) it can get humid in the garage. Probably more humid inside during the winter.

Jigman

[justplugit]

The guy who i buy my house paint from, and has always steered me right, says by using a quality oil base primer diluted with 25% turps, followed by a coat of Bin should seal it better than anything.
Anybody tried it ,or can comment about this method?

[capesams]

I do believe on the back of bin can it say's for spot prime only,,not a whole house primer.....I had a friend who was in a big rush to get a customers house painted. he primed all the trim brd's with bin,,it all came off in a matter of weeks. he paid dearly for that mistake....it's only made to cover knots.

[justplugit]

Thanks Capesams,glad i asked!

[piemma]

I have been testing big Dannys that I made out of AYC for about a month and I have not sealed any of the. They don't seem to absorb water at all. I do, prime, paint and clear coat the plugs but I don't see any need to seal AYC.

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

Capesam. at one point in my life i did a lot of work for a sign company here in VT. all the signs were painted with bin primer and still are. a lot of the signs were magahany or pine, hand carved, there was never any problem with paint peeling. the signs are all over the east coast, from Universal Studios in Fla to places on the cape and the islands,many see direct exposure to the elements.i think your freinds problem was that he''was in a hurry'', not the primer. for instance, you by trim boards, say pine, you don't break the surface with sand paper before priming. you can have adhesion problems. you know as well as anybody hast makes waste.

[capesams]

ok....so there's no confusion.,....there are 2 types of BIN......reg, bin is for interior use only and spot primeing on exterior knots only.......BIN 1-2-3 is made for exterior use.
the red label is reg. interior
blue label is the 1 2 3 exterior.......hope this clears things up. my friend used reg.red label

[Jigman]

Hmmm, may be I better check my primer can to be sure what I got. I've used the spray stuff with, I think, a red label. Might be why I had paint wrinkle up on a few plugs

Came across this info on painting and painting problems that might be of use to others too:

http://www.briansmodelcars.com/tutor...D=30&CurPage=1

Jigman

[Canalman]

Capesams,

123 is not BIN. 123 is a latex version of BIN. BIN is shallac based and a good stain killer because it dries very rapidly... you can run into problems with BIN for two reasons. 1) BIN dries so fast that it does not penetrate into the wood at all, therefore it lifts when the wood absorbs water. The other problem is that sometimes acrylic paints don't like it very much this happens mostly with flats, createx base coat white sometimes has a bad reaction and crackles, no matter how hard you try you will not cover the crackles. I really only use shellac if I want to block a stain, and in that case I use amber shellac and then prime over it.

1-2-3 is zinssers answer to a latex, quick dry stain killer. It has great adhesion and can be coaxed to penetrate using floetrol and water. It doesn't block stains worth a damn and personally I don't like it alone. I mix it with some other acrylic sealers and water and apply it as a primer through the airbrush.

Cutting oil based primer with turps works very well, penetration is good, adhesion is good, sealing is moderate. But the smell of the turps lasts and lasts and lasts. I don't think striped bass are really into turpentine.


Hope this helps
-Dave

[capesams]

I'm getting a giggle out of this,,I don't use bin at all,,like you say I think it sucks....I'm an oil man all the way.

here's one for u.....turps....minerial...paint thinner.

turps is great if your working outside
minerial sp....a clean air thinner..no smell , an rust o leum wants you to use it to thin their paint, they switched over from fish oil cause there's no fish left.
paint thinner...just plain sucks period...I don't have a clue what it is.

those are 3 different thinners an are not all the same.

now when I was telling you about bin....it came right off the back label of an old gal. can...I wasn't just talking outta my hat.

[justplugit]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge and your input has been great.
Iv'e used an oil base primer followed by a latex stain on my barn which is pine,and cedar fence, both of which get alot of beating rain, with excellent results even after 10yrs.
I'll try the oilbase primer ,using the mineral spirits as Canalman suggested to thin it,and paint with the createx water base.
See what happens.

[justplugit]

SORRY Capesams,you should of gotten credit for the mineral spirits suggestion!

[capesams]

now don't go an pin a gold star on my forhead,,,it'll b just another target fa some one ta shoot at.....I grew up with the good old stuff,,lead paint, no need fa clear coating,,,,air dryed wood,,,reel galve hooks,,,,fish oil fa thinner....all thats gone now, even the good junk of 10 years ago that was in oil paint is a thing of the past......it's no wonder everyone is having a hard time getting anything to stick or work right.....laytex this laytex that ,,,hum bug...

[Canalman]

CS.. I know you weren't "Talking out of your hat".. you are one of the most knowledgable guys on this site (IMHO ). I agree on the mineral spirits, turps, thinner thing. No one seems to know what paint thinner is only that it doesn't THIN paint it pretty much destroys it and breaks it down into.. well.... crap. I think thinner is more of a brush cleaning solution.

The only thing I can think of on the old BIN can is that perhaps there was a company called BIN that made BIN and 123 which was later bought out by Zinsser . No Idea I just know what's on the newer lables and about the newer products.
-DAve

[Canalman]

I hear ya... The VOCs in oil based paint make up the smallest piece of the pie of all the industies that make products that release them. But of course they regulate that first. Whatever... pretty soon it will be water and food coloring...

[capesams]

back ta sealers.....read the labels...look at the percentage's of what's in it...most contain WAX......my paint don't stick to wax,,yours??

[Jigman]

Great stuff guys, appreciate it. Too bad it couldn't be as simple as lead: heat it, dip it in powder, cook, go fishing

Jigman

[justplugit]

I know where you guys are coming from feeling oil paint is the best. My Dad was a house painter in the 30's and never stopped talking about the virtues of lead and oil paint.They were flexible and nourished the wood. He would always worry about the latex peeling when moisture got behind them.
He would always use a product called Penetrol,when mixing his oils as it gave a nice consitantcy and flowed on real smooth.
I can still hear him saying whenever i'm brushing "go from the unfinished to the finished"!I wouldn't dare use anything but oil until the acrylics came about. They stick like glue and are so easy to clean up.
Maybe by using the oil primer and acrylic paint you can have the best of both worlds?

[capesams]

lead..jigs..wire

your dad is still right dry ta wet

[justplugit]

Ya he is still right, and is still with me everyday to keep me on the right road. Thanks Capesam.

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

i stand corrected, it is 123 primer that i meant. for plugs its oil based all the way, i wouldn't paint my boat with water based paint.

[capesams]

chicken

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

i am sure it won't be to long that water based is all thats available to the common man. surprised they don't require a license to buy oil based paint LOL

[Canalman]

CS... yea most "water-based" sealers do contain micronized wax.. Thompsons, Beads and Beads, Cabots 2000 etc. And no paint does not like that wax. However these are not the types of sealers that I am working with... I am dabbling in waterborne urethane sealers... mixing them in different ratios with industrial primers etc. I have a lot of resources.. I have been selling paint for the last 4 years.... not that that make me an expert

Steve... lets cut this chit out , I am not trying to outsmart you, as I said you are one of the most knowledgable guys here the things you've taught me have saved me months.. maybe years of testing and general figgerin' stuff out. I am always testing new things out trying to make things easier... when and if I find this sealer/primer that I'm chasing you all will know about it, I'm always looking to make things better for everyone. (If I can )
There is no doubt that the way you do things works and works well... I'm just trying to share the info I have after selling the stuff and being trained to do so. Thanks again for all the info you've shared. And maybe one day we can trade a plug or two??? Those Dannys you make look soooo tasty.

-DAve

[Krispy]

Canalman, are you trying to make a primer that seals too?
Wouldnt the primer /sealer need to absorb into most of the wood, similar to what a sealer alone needs to do?

Just curious, as I dont find the sealer step a big deal.
It adds maybe 1 day to the process

[JHABS]

Sealing can't HURT, And will add LIFE to the PLUG. So I will CONTINUE to SEAL.......To each there own.......

[piemma]

Hey John:
I have some of your plugs from loooong ago. Needle fish and I traded the last jointed pikie I had of your to jack at Nelsons. Do you remember the few joined plugs you made abot 10 years ago?