Hey Zeno

[Nebe]

Great article in OTW this month. You wrote it in a very tasteful way.... no treasure maps with black "x"'s to mark prime casting areas, Only the basics to wet my appitite. I have always wanted to go out and fish there, and your article, gave me all i need to know.

[NIB]

He's become one of my favorite writers in a short time.'
Wish i had the Mag to read it.I just got last months.

[Peter Lajoie]

Just finished reading it, and it I found it to be a great article..I had the pleasure of meeting Zeno in sept on Long Island and he was a great guy to talk to and he certainly knows his stuff...

[BernOC]

Dayum...I didn't get mine yet. I remember reading an excellent article by Z in the Fisherman (when I use to get it) on weakfish a few years back. Informative and entertaining. All the information was there on how and when to find the fish...where is up to you.
Hey NIB

[NIB]

Hey Bernie !

[piemma]

Agree with Nebe. One of the best articles I have seen written in some time. Especially like the fact that Z gave good information without getting overly specific.

[keeperreaper]

No treasure map? WTF? Great article.

[RIJIMMY]

Funny, I read the article yesterday and I walked away with learning nothing. Hey there are stripers at Montauk, its rocky there too! Wow, thanks. He makes it sound like there are no fish in New England in November, you need to go south
I actually pondered why i bothered subscribing to any mags. Its the same old stuff rehashed every month. I wasnt looking for spots, but at least something I could learn! I thought the lure commentary was stupid and seemed like plugs for certain brands. Thought it was a waste of ink, sorry to sound disrecpectul but I am really suprised you all liked it.

[NIB]

I haven't got the mag yet.But like I said ilike Zeno writing.He goes beyond the typical where,what how too's.There's more to fishin then havin something on the end of ur line.sure the internet is this great palce for our world of instant gratifaction.i'll take a well written book or article anytime.its too bad u chose to slam the article.but thats ur choice.montauk ain't for everyone.it's HARD fishin.there's a adrenlaine rush to it that is tough to beat.Thats good.Stay in NE. NY are not nice anyways.

[RIJIMMY]

Its not too bad,. I just didnt like it. I'll fish Montauk, but his articel will have nothing to do with it. Perhaps its not fair to be critcial without being more specific.
Here what I would have like to have seen.

- The typical "fall" season for Mntk, for example , fsih migrate in Sept and stay until Dec. Some basic idea of when the fishing picks up and when it ends.
- The lure talk was insulting, he says that Mntk regulars would never throw a needlefish becasue of the rocky condicitons....HUH? I throw heavy neeldefish at some of the most rocky places in RI, needlefish are top water lures, even when retrieved slowly. Then later in the article he mnetions that thee do throw needles when the sand eels move in, but reccomends a slow sinker.
Then he says to throw buck tail jigs...huh? Inconsistent concepts

- could have added more history about the place

I am not trying to be a jerk, I really did not like his style, seemed lke an 8th grade book report. Didnt win me over.

[PNG]

Saw the article but didnt read, just breezed it. I was busy scouring the rest of the mag to see any explanation or apology for last months issue. Nothing. Editorial comment, nope. Guess it didnt happen

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Funny, I read the article yesterday and I walked away with learning nothing. Hey there are stripers at Montauk, its rocky there too! Wow, thanks. He makes it sound like there are no fish in New England in November, you need to go south
I actually pondered why i bothered subscribing to any mags. Its the same old stuff rehashed every month. I wasnt looking for spots, but at least something I could learn! I thought the lure commentary was stupid and seemed like plugs for certain brands. Thought it was a waste of ink, sorry to sound disrecpectul but I am really suprised you all liked it.

your kidding right. You learned nothing???? i learned about 10 different things, but hey, i am a very observant guy

[RIROCKHOUND]

Ok, My 0.02 cents...
Was this a ground breaking article? No, did I learn about skiishing for the first time? Nope, did I learn that yellow darters at Montauk for the first time; nope... This article was a decent read, on an area I havent yet fished. It described the area, fishing, tackle and style (mugging ) of the locals...
Was it contradictory? Maybe but then again look at buggies in C-town and you will generally see bucktails during the day and plugs at night...

The bigger issue is that fact the RIJ made an observation that he didnt really think it was that great of an article, whats the big deal in that? J___ C____ Spence ripped every writer besides Manzi and Lyons yesterday saying he learned nothing from anyone else; besides Flap getting a bit deservably pissed, noone cared (it was spence after all)

I wrote an article recently for OTW, all I got was some praise.. I would have LOVED some criticism and feed back to learn and improve for any future articles that I may want to write. I dont know him, but hopefully Zeno feels the same way... I mean in acadamia you send work out for review and people purposely shred it, and this is done to IMPROVE the work... why should fishing mags be different... You cant please all the people all the time

Zeno, highly decent article, I enjoyed your popper at night article more than this one, but this one was a good look at Montauk...

I havent read the T-Tog article yet but that may be worth a look, maybe I'll learn something there

Bryan

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Ok, My 0.02 cents...
Spence ripped every writer besides Manzi and Lyons yesterday saying he learned nothing from anyone else; besides Flap getting a bit deservably pissed, noone cared (it was spence after all)

Bryan, send me your article if you want a little criticism

And anyway, while I admit my remark was (needlessly) inflammatory, I didn't rip every writer besides those two...rather I was just commenting on what I've read (I don't believe I've ever read anything by Flap BTW, although I probably have). I'm sure there are plenty of good writers out there, but the publishers don't (IMHO) solicit enough good writing to get me to subscribe to a magazine. They are mostly just containers for boat adverts....

-spence

[tynan19]

Zeno had a good little article in this past weeks Fisherman also. Written for Mtk but can be applied everywhere. Nice work Z.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Flap's got a column in otw monthly which I read and enjoy... his take on fishing the cape beach often applies to SoCo open beaches as well.... I think personally think Steve's got the best style of the writers on the scene right now (not a shameless ass-kissing, my OPINION) In fact a while back I told Steve through a PM I was writing an article for OTW and he was supportive and I appreciated that..
As far as shamless plugs for certain manufacturers, I think most writers without a vested interest in selling tackle talk about what works for them, and thats it (hopefully)

You have to remember; most guys that write for mag's arent WRITERS! we have been solicited to write an article and then do the best we can...

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

You have to remember; most guys that write for mag's arent WRITERS! we have been solicited to write an article and then do the best we can...

You're contradicting yourself

Although I get the point...and it's well taken.

-spence

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Ok, My 0.02 cents...
Spence ripped every writer besides Manzi and Lyons yesterday saying he learned nothing from anyone else; besides Flap getting a bit deservably pissed, noone cared (it was spence after all)
Bryan

That's funny.

I thought the article was pretty good. Great pics too.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by spence

You're contradicting yourself

-spence

Where?

[spence]

If you accept an invitation to write then you are (de facto) a writer!

Sort of like how because I stand on a rock and throw eels and plugs into the water I am a fisherman

I thought you had to work?

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

In my opinion, a true writer is someone who does it regularly and professionally; a fisherman who writes 1 article a year is not a writer in my opinion...
I am working; your dragging me into your circular logic!

[zimmy]

looking at this thread I noticed there is something about no needles at Montauk. Well, I haven't fished there yet, but I bought several of these needles called the "Montauk needlefish ." Well, what's in a name. Must be a marketing ploy for those of us who don't know much. At least they work ok elsewhere

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

...a fisherman who writes 1 article a year is not a writer in my opinion...

Amazing how you've gone from thrashing me to thrashing the infrequent fishing writer in just a few posts!

Can't you say anything positive???

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

Thats not a dig; I myself am NOT a writer, just a guy who fishes and wrote an article... thats all...
and I wasnt trashing you (much) damn Iowa circular logic...

[spence]

An amature writer is a writer still...I think you're selling yourself short

-spence

[Karl F]

Originally Posted by PNG

Saw the article but didnt read, just breezed it. I was busy scouring the rest of the mag to see any explanation or apology for last months issue. Nothing. Editorial comment, nope. Guess it didnt happen

I did the same, and no, zip, zero, nothing...and from what I have heard in the local B&T's lately, I doubt we will see what we were looking for PNG... there is a push on for more info, and perhaps another venue to bring it to the fore.....time will tell.

I liked the way the M article was done. Pictures of places I'd seen before, no maps and circles and arrows, can live with that. Be interesting to see input from NY guys on the piece.

[spence]

Aside from the emails I'm sure they received about the spot burn element of the piece...I'd hope there were some complaining they didn't get the “guaranteed fishing” as promised in the lead!

-spence

[Joe]

I did not read Zeno's story. Flap does a good job of writing and Manzi's is chock-a-block full of factoids. I think David Pickering does a very, very good job of how-to, Frank D can still get me "horsed-up -to-fish." But I think we really need to be looking at the big picture before we set our expectations.

Outdoor writing can occasionally be high art - but it's not usually of much merit. Where-to and how-to constitute the majority of the stories and they are simplistic and topical. Given the format, there is not much room for anything else. Set the mood in the first paragraph, wrap up the details in the last - in the middle, it's a series of facts and anecdotes - that's it. Send it in, and cross your fingers in the hope that the public does not roast you in appreciation. (A wise writer would scratch doing any future where-to if he wants to keep the air in his tires.)

Often times you will get a better story out of the occasional writer as opposed to the part-time writer because a person who dabbles in writing has fresher ideas and is much more likely to spend more time on piece than a person who does 30 articles a year. Many prolific part-time writers approach any given topic this way: "Ok. This story, it pays $100. If I can't do it in under two hours and if I can't pull the images from stock - it's not worth doing." That's why so much stuff appears formulaic - because its only worth doing if it is.

It's naive to expect that all traditional journalistic standards (i.e. a writer must be impartial, a writer should have no conflict of interest, etc) should apply to outdoor writers. They never have and I doubt they ever will. Outside of a magazine's staffers, virtually no one is writing full-time because you can't make a living doing it. In other discusions I've heard people mention Zane Grey and Ernest Hemingway - as if we should expect greatness from small publications with even smaller budgets. Get real. Like all small-market trade and hobby magazines, content for outdoor magazines is provided by a mix of practicing hobbyists and industry professionals - not literary giants. In the outdoor industry, these people are often guides, outfitters, charter captians and wildlife managers.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Karl F

I did the same, and no, zip, zero, nothing...and from what I have heard in the local B&T's lately, I doubt we will see what we were looking for PNG... there is a push on for more info, and perhaps another venue to bring it to the fore.....time will tell.

I liked the way the M article was done. Pictures of places I'd seen before, no maps and circles and arrows, can live with that. Be interesting to see input from NY guys on the piece.

Why do you expect an apology, explanation or otherwise? Do you think that the magazine owes you one? Do you really believe that the editorial/management/publishing staff truly beleives they owe one to you or anyone else. This really amazes me. The guy wrote the article. The responsibility rests squarely with the writer to make the call if he personally is going over some imaginary line drawn on the sand or the rocks in this case by a bunch of insecure, paranoid fishermen who have an overinflated view of reality. The fact is and remains that the vast majority of the publications readers will never, nor do they comprehend the magnitude ( in your general opinions) of what was writen or the implications it could have. The mag staff is not bound nor should they be in dictating limits of what a writer puts in or leaves out of his work. HIS WORK, get it? If they started to do that the magazine would no longer be of any value or interest to anyone but the inane unknowing public, it would be an over-edited collection of bland pages between two covers. Try working OTW' s booth at a show and listen to the comments about what should be in the mag. Everyone has an opinion.

If you fish the same spots all the time, if you never ever do anything else but stick to the same routine of start at point x and end at beach y your in a serious rut and if you believe your secret spot is yours and yours alone and no one has ever fsihed there before you and when your gone no one will ever stumble upon that spot again your terribly misguided. I see it on the outer cape all the time. All the local heroes get pissed when someone shows up on thier bar or thier point. Do you own that spot? Do you alone have legal rights to be there? Pressure will wane and rise on areas despite articles or whatever.
One only has to lurk on these boards to pick up enough intel to figure out general locations and once on those grounds zero in on the finer points of the area. Grow up all of you. You all say too mauch at one time or another. The local papers say it every Friday in season. The tackle shops hoping to increase business tell just enough. An apology? No way, none given and none deserved. Take it up with the author of the piece and stop this bull%$%$%$%$ once and for all.

[RIJIMMY]

Flap. I thought someone said that there would be a response by the OTW editors in the next issue.
Dont shoot me, I'm just saying I know I read that out here from someone.