Here it comes........

[Flaptail]

Hold onto your hats boys and girls, the Mid-east is about to blow! Iraqi civil war will make the Khmer Rouge guys look like amateurs. The Iran gets into the fray, we are there left holding our jockstraps because everyone except Britain will bail. Syria starts dumping arms and men into it and boom! Thank you President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Sec. Rumsfeld, the world is about to ignite because of your piss poor leadership. Somebody please, can we get these turkeys out of office now? The Gold Star Mothers membership is going to skyrocket now. If you have a son, daughter, father, mother, brother, sister, cousins or friends in the Military start praying real hard that the inevitable somehow is miraculously avoided.

[striperman36]

What happened? I missed it!!
Even if the GOP is in power it will be the status quo. We ain't going to be able to get out of this one. They will bring it to us soon!!

[BigFish]

If they bring back the draft I am pretty sure the Bush girls are of age! That is if the draft applies to women?

I saw this one coming quite awhile ago...all the way back to when Bush Sr. did not finish the job!

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by BigFish

If they bring back the draft I am pretty sure the Bush girls are of age! That is if the draft applies to women?

I saw this one coming quite awhile ago...all the way back to when Bush Sr. did not finish the job!

They dont draft chicks

[spence]

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

[BigFish]

They don't currently draft men either but that too could change. (Besides...it was a joke)

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Hold onto your hats boys and girls, the Mid-east is about to blow! Iraqi civil war will make the Khmer Rouge guys look like amateurs. The Iran gets into the fray, we are there left holding our jockstraps because everyone except Britain will bail. Syria starts dumping arms and men into it and boom! Thank you President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Sec. Rumsfeld, the world is about to ignite because of your piss poor leadership. Somebody please, can we get these turkeys out of office now? The Gold Star Mothers membership is going to skyrocket now. If you have a son, daughter, father, mother, brother, sister, cousins or friends in the Military start praying real hard that the inevitable somehow is miraculously avoided.

Yeah its all Bush's fault. The muslims have nothing to do with all the violance in the world. Its all Bush.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by spence

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

Spence, that was perfectly put. Let's hope real hard.

[BigFish]

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Skip N

They dont draft chicks

Like BF said they don't draft men either.

When the Draft was last used Women were not allowed in Combat. They are Now....so that WILL change....If there is a draft they will be part of it.

[spence]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy???

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Yeah its all Bush's fault. The muslims have nothing to do with all the violance in the world. Its all Bush.

How many American Service Men were in Iraq before he was President? How many Now?

He's the Head Cheese and Commander in Chief of the Military....Yeah it is his fault....at least some of it

If everything went Stellar over there you'd bet He'd be grabbing all the Praise and Glory.


Geesh... Even Spiderman knows "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

[mekcotuit]

Originally Posted by Skip N

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

How is this for "pre 9/11 mentality, or should I say mental illness:

President Bush on Thursday defended his administration's decision to allow a company from an Arab country to operate six major U.S. ports, saying, "People don't need to worry about security."

"This deal wouldn't go forward if we were concerned about the security of the United States of America," Bush told reporters during a Cabinet meeting.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

So what would you do to stop terroism and keep radical muslims from attacking the US? Obviosly the pre 9/11 liberal policies failed us. What is your solution to the problem?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism...You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.

We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.


We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

Yeah its all OUR fault. The muslims would be good solid folks if it wasnt for us damn Amercians. You still didnt mention what your plan for destroying and taking down terroists and terroists states are?

[striperman36]

Nastrodamus was right

[RIJIMMY]

Skip, it aint worth it.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

I think thats an unfair comparison, although I agree with your point.
Germany suffered Humuliation in WW1, and were starving literally for anyone that could take charge and lead their country. Hitler was in the right place at the right time, and seized the opportunity.Once in power ,it was impossible for the PEOPLE to remove him. The rest is history. This is the whole point. Once a dictator is in a position of such IMMENSE power, he cant be VOTED out. You have to physically remove him.
Germans are a civilized people, WW2 is in the past & they have been more than contrite IMO, much like slavery is in the past for us here in the good ol USA. Their History is more than you & I could read about in a lifetime, comparing the people of Germany(at any time in history) to these animals in the middle east ? Please, I would not even dignify that with a response.
WE(US, EUROPE et al) ARE more civilized,so why cant we just come out and FREAKING say it. If WE dont find a resolution, WHO WILL ??
Can someone answer that one question for me and I will shut up.

[Mike P]

Is anyone still wondering why Bush 41---who's forgotten more about world affairs than his son ever learned---left Saddam in power after liberating Kuwait? For all of the bad advice W got, the best advice he could have received was from his Dad, and he didn't listen to it

When you have a country made up of ethnicities/cultures who historically hate each others' guts, only a brutal dictator can hold it together--look what happened in the Balkans after Tito died.

That being said--a reckoning with Iran has been brewing since 1979. Now that we've removed the natural counterweight to their influence in the region, it's inevitable that our military will have to pay that price. The day we leave Iraq, is the day the Revolutionary Guards march south, and it plays out just like Tom Clancy depicted it in one of his books--a "United Islamic Republic" and the whole region goes kablooey.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by spence

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Skip, it aint worth it.

I know...I don't know why i even bother.

[Flaptail]

Skip, point counterpoint makes debate a good thing. I don't agree with just about 80% of what your saying but I agree that you can say it and shouldn't be bashed for it. Keep your opinions sacred and stick with them please and don't give up defending your views.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.

Well, no actually. Congress didn't vote to go to war, they voted to allow the President to use force to protect the country if necessary and if the Admin could prove that Saddam had WMD and links to al Qaida.

It's pretty clear today they were led just like the rest of us. Did they ask the difficult questions and provide the proper oversight? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they were complicit.

-spence

[Raven]

concerning the mosque.....see that particular building being as old as it was...(and our government realizes the signifigance of it but many do not) it was the fabled place that mohamed ...their version of jesus was supposed to return to....and ironically the other shrine where jesus is foretold to return is nearby.... i believe
...i saw a whole program on these ideology's on the history channel.. and bigfish and whoever else...
Bush has already lost control regardless if anythings his fault or not.
the destruction of the mosque was a particularly huge milestone!
this EVENT has totally changed the landscape of religious power.

what i'm wondering is: what our position is (militarilly) when the Civil war just explodes because we cannot take sides in a secular war....

we're only there to fight the terrorist's...the jhadists...insurgents.

and i'm in agreement of a pull back....not a shove in.....with a draft.

Flaptail : whats your idea concerning the Civil war scenario?

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Skip, point counterpoint makes debate a good thing. I don't agree with just about 80% of what your saying but I agree that you can say it and shouldn't be bashed for it. Keep your opinions sacred and stick with them please and don't give up defending your views.

I will always speek my mind and dont care what people think of my views. Even when poeple like Nebe attempt to align me and Rebublicans with Nazi's and make personal attacks about my mother. Its just tough talking politics on a New England fishing website where 90% of the people are probably Liberal Democrats. But whatever, i'll take you guys on like i always do. Maybe knock some sense into some of you

[Skip N]

And why are so many on the left who are opposed to the war in Iraq and want our military outta there so in favor of a draft? If you have a draft that means you'd want more troops in the fight. So they want more troops on the ground but want to pull out of Iraq? If you want to pull out why do you want more troops? That logic makes no sense

[The Dad Fisherman]

Who said they were in favor of a draft? I don't see that in this thread