Thinkin out loud--

[justplugit]

here.

I always drilled my belly holes in the closed grain of the plug thinking it is the most dense and would naturally want to lay on the water with the dense grain down.

Then i started using Taggar's Hydro-orientation method and found out how wrong i was. Each plug floats a little different no matter what the grain.

Now i was thinkin today, being that the plugs, or at least mine, are never perfectly round with the drift off dead center, especially on the softer cedars, could this be a reason why each plug will float a little different?

When i mark my belly holes with a pencil spinning on the lathe, it will hit on the high sides and not the low. I would think if you drilled the belly holes on the high side that would be the heaviest side of the plug and lay down on that side.

Whata you think.

[Tagger]

I'm sticking with it till I find something better .. Had to change my methods to build this way .. making it harder on myself .. I think its worth it.. Been told no,no,no ,, still not convinced,, water method or some kind of fluid is totally frictionless ,,100%.. even lubricated rubber, you still get friction .right ?. Interresting the turning out of round theory .. noticed on some pieces the pencil hitting some places first leaving others blank ,,, I'll have to pay more attention to that .. good one . Still tight grain ,loose grain,, out of round ,, it all comes out in the Wash ,,,pun intended..

[justplugit]

Eddie, Hydro-orientation let me "see the light", opened my eyes, and is the Gold Standard, no doubt. Just lookin for an easier way without usin all those drillin jigs you Jigman and CS make.Next to tyin siwash, i hate drillin the most. :

You guys gotta keep me learnin.

[Karl F]

Tagger.. how about "Roll Orientation".. ? Ever try it to compare to Hydro?
Two old guys I have talked to, (one on here ) have told me of this method. One of them built commercial for years...
two parralell thin gage angle iron on level bench top.. roll the plug slowly along it, let it settle... make a line.. do it again to check...and, it doesn't raise the grain...
When I get organized, and building again, I'll give it a try.. have not built a plug in months ...

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Tagger

the turning out of round theory ..

If it pans out ,it could go down in history along with" Relativity" and "Hydro-orientation."

Like Karl F says, "oh how you like to punish yourselves".

[capesams]

showed Mr.T something just like that when he was here, I could feel his eye's roll up into his head as he stood behind me as I was doin a demo for him....either I suck doin demo's or he's just stubborn like the rest of us older folk's.


ps....ifin I push to much to get a plug cut....she gets out of round...knife doesn't get a chance to cut even..dig's into the softer grain and jumps off the harder stuff on the same blank.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Karl F

Tagger.. how about "Roll Orientation".. ? Ever try it to compare to Hydro?.

kinda what I mean by fluid being totally frictionless .. roll orientation better than nothing if you don't want to get the plug wet . agree hydro may not be to the liking of a commercial builder . By the way,, I didn't invent this,, just stubbled upon it,, got lots of attaboys , and on the right track ,,from heavies at other sight .. I don't care about time ,,or xtra steps . to me .. i'd rather have the wood work with me than against me .. anyone who tells me just look at the grain hasn't given this an honest try on a number of blanks .. I don't really care to defend it .. I like doing it . to each his own .

[Karl F]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Like Karl F says, "oh how you like to punish yourselves".

Don't we all...

JPI.. wonder if the "Hold on, Danny" theory would have any application here ...

[crash]

The part of the wood that hits the pencil first will usually be on the side when placed in the water. Floating plugs before you drill seems to work well for me, unless I know I'll be adding a bunch of belly weight. I don't have the experience of some of you, but it seems to work well for me.

[Jigman]

Plugs float a little different cause the density is not even through a piece of wood, even sections of the same ballister are different. Hydro orienting puts the heavy side down so it does not work against the plug when retrieving. Make jigs and learn how to tie a siwash, life will be good again

Jigman

[Grapenuts]

I gave my plug a sponge bath does that count

[BigFish]

I believe its all moot once you add either belly weight and/or the swivel and belly/tail hooks.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by BigFish

I believe its all moot once you add either belly weight and/or the swivel and belly/tail hooks.

nope, not so true Larry

back when BM and I started making needles, we test floated them in salt water in a bucket to see how they sat and how they sunk and how fast or slow the sunk. Then we used the same water to float round blanks that were destined to be swimmers, because even doing the roll test on a flat surface like the tablesaw, they still were not quite right. Jigman is correct about the density of the grain being different in different parts of the wood, even from the same sticks. It is much more accurate to float the wood, there is nothing wrong with raised grain, once dry, it sands smooth. Hooks and belly weights are not enough to compensate for some discrepincies in the wood density on some plugs. It might seem like a picky thing to do, but it gets results. If I made bottle swimmers, I would definately float them before any cutting or drilling. If you ever made pikies with small knots in the wood, you'd see that it matters where they are.



"
When i mark my belly holes with a pencil spinning on the lathe, it will hit on the high sides and not the low. I would think if you drilled the belly holes on the high side that would be the heaviest side of the plug and lay down on that side."

Dave, not neccesarilly.
take some round stock, now sand a flat spot along one side all along it's length. flaot it and see how it sits

[BigFish]

But you tested wood that had not been weighted or had the hardware applied. I still believe the weight of the hardware will negate the variations in the density in the wood as at that point it is less than negligible. The applied weight from the hardware will dominate/dictate the action of the plug as the center of gravity will be where the most weight is applied.....thats my opinion and I am sticking to it. I did discuss this very point with an engineer and it was also his opinion. You say tomato and I say tom-ah-toe.

Keep on pluggin' kids!

[Slipknot]

that's correct Larry if the plug is simply just sitting in the water.

but we usually apply a force to the lure as it goes thru the water to swim like a fish, any slaight differences in the balance of the plug can be magnified as the plug is moved thru the water. I took mechanical engineering in college and I'm sticking to it

all in all, the balance can be thrown off even more when the thru wiring hole is drilled, since it is rare that they will be drill to exact tollerances.

you can drive yourselves crazy with piciune stuff, they are just plugs.

I gotta go make some boxes now

[BigFish]

I respect peoples passion and opinions.....especially yours Bruce. Thats why threads like this one are so good....you hear others opinions. I also will stick to my guns.....as I have seen nothing to prove otherwise in how my plugs perform.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

"
When i mark my belly holes with a pencil spinning on the lathe, it will hit on the high sides and not the low. I would think if you drilled the belly holes on the high side that would be the heaviest side of the plug and lay down on that side."

Dave, not neccesarilly.
take some round stock, now sand a flat spot along one side all along it's length. flaot it and see how it sits

Slip, you are right. Took a plug i just turned, penciled it, and Taga

hydroriented it. Suprise, suprise, it floated with the high side up and

the flat side down. . Granted that's only one plug, but as i

finish up this batch i will test each one the same way and see what

the results are for all 15.


Rollem Theory, Hdro Theory, Turning out of round Theory, Density Theory, Drill 'em wherever ya want Theory---all good.
But Karl,-- Hold On Danny Theory, waaaaay to dangerous.

Ya keep me learnin.

[Karl F]

Qoute from Slip: Hooks and belly weights are not enough to compensate for some discrepincies in the wood density on some plugs.

Amen to that!.. I have seen this firsthand on plugs I've paid for!
I've seen the bucket of saltwater in the BM cave, and you reminded me of how long ol BM (and you too) has been Hydro'ing...
You are right too, center hole alignment is key.. all good stuff..

Thanks Bruce.. and Tagger!

Eddy, not implying U needed to defend anything was just asking if ya ever compared, sorry if ya thought I was pissin in yer shoe.. not my intention at all.

[Raven]

all the above theories......

i went to the crystal ball room

to consult with the great Oracle....

he replied....
````~~~~~

if you make them,

they will swim....

then everything went cloudy

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by BigFish

But you tested wood that had not been weighted or had the hardware applied. I still believe the weight of the hardware will negate the variations in the density in the wood as at that point it is less than negligible. The applied weight from the hardware will dominate/dictate the action of the plug as the center of gravity will be where the most weight is applied.....:

Not saying the force will overcome lead and hardware .. Just be nice to have the 2 working together.Karl ,,stop pissing in my shoe ..

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Raven

all the above theories......

i went to the crystal ball room

to consult with the great Oracle....

he replied....
````~~~~~

if you make them,

they will swim....

then everything went cloudy

Its not a Theory to me ... after floating maybe 300 blanks its become a conclusion ...

[justplugit]

RAVEN you are out of control.

[justplugit]

OK here goes----
After an unscientific , fly by the seat of your pants study, done in 103 deg heat today, these are the results:

12 plugs, 6 ayc and 6 red ceda were marked on the lathe using the "The Turning Out of Round Theory" and then taken for a swim in the bathtub using "The Hydro-orientation Theory".

Of the 12 plugs tested by the TOR Theory, the results were:

8 showed the Flat side down.

4 showed the round side down.

Of the 12 plugs tested by the HO Theory,the results were:

6 showed the Open grain down.

6 showed the Closed grain down.

When they were broken down by AYC vs Red Ceda the results were:

OTR Theory:

Red Ceda 5 flat side down, 1 round side down.
Ayc 3 flat side down 3 round side down.

HO Theory:
Red Ceda 5 open grain down, 1 closed grain down.
Ayc 3 open grain down, 3 closed grain down.

Conclusion:
Between the 2 ways tested the HO Theory showed 100% accuracy.
The OTR Theory did show some consistency with the Red Ceda being that 5 out of 6 times the Flat side was down, but split 3 and 3 on the AYC. So if you didn't want to HO with Red Ceda you have a good chance of getting it right by drillin the belly holes in the open grain.However, being there are 2 sides of open grain your chances of drilling the right side are diminished.

Any questions on the validity of the results should be directed to NumbSkull, as being a Doctor and having to deceifer 100's of studies in his medical profession is the only qualified guy on the site.

Someone else will have to do "The Rollem Theory", there's not a level spot in my whole house.
The "Hold on Danny Theory" will have to wait till gas prices go down.

Tagga, ya owe me Big Time.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Tagga, ya owe me Big Time.

Checks in the mail..... Surprised it was that cut and dry ,,,(face grain up or to the side) I usaully have some that sit diagnal .. Also noticed the force is stronger in some pieces than others .. Some you mark top ,,,spin ,, and they slowly roll top up again .. Some the force is strong and they snap right back ,,quickly .

[Backbeach Jake]

JPI, I gots to know; how the hell do you have that many brain cells left?

[BigFish]

All I am saying is once the weight/hardware is introduced, its a whole new ball game. Nice test though and I have no doubt of its accuracy.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by BigFish

All I am saying is once the weight/hardware is introduced, its a whole new ball game. Nice test though and I have no doubt of its accuracy.

I have some danny's that are my lucky plugs just out catch the other ones.U 've never heard that ?? By chance i think they got it right.
Lots of my plugs push the boundry's of wieght to action.Mainly for castability an good action in rougher water when bass like to play.getting it right helps me make a plug that will swim better within these guidelines.i toyed with this yrs ago but it was a PITA.
But the taggerman has reopened my eyes to its importance.
Do what u like.I also believe in HO.there's more to making good lures than leavin things to chance.I make my own plugs.Because i want the best lure I can pull out of my bag when I find the time to fish.Why build a plug that fights itself to swim.Why compromise.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Backbeach Jake

JPI, I gots to know; how the hell do you have that many brain cells left?

I dunno Fred, sometimes i amaze myself.

[Tagger]

darters,,, thats where this started for me ,, Musso type ,,, no weight ,,, just wood .. I didn't like the idea of getting hard maple wet .. A piece falls of the bench and it cracks .. Had to seal it, tank it ,,drill it ,, then seal it again .. pia.. But they didn't roll out in the ditch .. not one .. asked somebody at Red Top why no darters on the wall ? "Oh ,, they roll out in the ditch" they said ..

[Jigman]

Originally Posted by BigFish

All I am saying is once the weight/hardware is introduced, its a whole new ball game....

Actually, its part of the same ballgame. Yes, the weight, lip, hooks, grommets, how close to dead center you drill, etc. all come into play. However, if you start off with something that sits right in the water, the wood will not be acting against the other parts. Want to put this to a real life test? Turn two identical swimmer blanks. Drop them in a tub of water and mark top on both. Finish up one by placing "top" on one side and the other with the "top" as the back of the plug. Take them out for a swim and report back. Unless you really screwed up something, I can already tell you which one will swim better.

JPI stuff. Like Tagger, I've found found some blanks where the grain was diagonal. Type of wood seems to have an influence too.

Bottom line, there a plenty of different ways to build a plug. To each their own. Seems to me that if you are going to spend the time to make a custom plug, you would want to make it the best way possible.

Jigman