Epoxy sealing hardwoods

[ProfessorM]

I am finishing up some darters and was wondering if anyone has or is sealing them with epoxy, heating the wood technique. I do this for soft woods and luv it. I also see no gain in weight to these plugs that are sealed this way. I was going to do the regular helsman soak for the birch ones I made but started to think I may try the epoxy as there seems to be a weight gain to the hard woods if you soak too long and the epoxy would add strength to the front lip part too which gets beat up a lot. So is there anyone who could offer the pros and cons of using this method for hardwoods such as maple and birch. If you do use it does the epoxy need to be thinned down much more so penetration occurs in a more substantial rate? P.

[ecduzitgood]

That is why I use the Minwax wood hardener, I look at it just being an epoxy with a lot of thinner(acetone,mek or whatever) plus it does harden the wood and no heat is needed and dries quick. Although it is frowned upon by many and I have not used it with anything but cedar. I don't mind the hazards because I was an auto body man so read the can and you decide. My experience is limited so you may want to wait till you hear from others that use other methods.

[JFigliuolo]

I seal everything w/epoxy. Maple,EWP, cedar, cypress.

Pros: IT WORKS.
Cons: mess.

I have never had a plug that was epoxy sealed fail.

[Slipknot]

Paul it depends on the epoxy if it needs to be thinned or not. System three clear coat you can get away with not thinning it because it is already thin. That is how NIB seals his rock maple darters. I have done it and it does add weight to birch plugs. I think it does a nice job penetrating and sealing and also hardens it. I compare it to what propianate does.

you will see the epoxy wick right into the plug and disappear, then you put more on. It's pretty easy. I wouldn't thin envirotex or any thick epoxy, try to use something already thin.

[JFigliuolo]

I thin etex w/DA

[Rockfish9]

I use it on the plugs I laminate maple or mahogany to cedar, it's the only time I use it and is seems to work well...

[Grapenuts]

go steal some from tagger....what he is using was made just for what you want to do.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Grapenuts

go steal some from tagger....what he is using was made just for what you want to do.

I heat my blanks to 200 degrees for 20 minutes(roughly) then seal with CPES... thinner than water ,, but it is death in a can .. I seal in a paint booth ,,wearing a respirator ,,with the fan s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g the air out the whole time ,, then I leave it on until they are dry to the touch .. I've done ceadar blanks for paul ( cpes makes plug surface hard) ,, he knows .. I don't think he liked it cause he called me smelly .. I'm not liking hard maple ,, maybe I got a bum piece ,, But I think its prone to splitting on impact of hitting the water .. can't prove .. I was going to try hard maple with screw eyes at some point as a final test . I think threw drilling and pulling the wedge in (noseloop) by cranking arse loop,,ain't good either.. But why bother when birch weight is good and more user friendly .. I will say hard maple darters dart nice .. havn't made the same in birch yet .. I plan on buying a 6/4 birch board when I hit the # .... Birch dowels at that diameter are to expensive . Thats where I am now with darters .. I feel the sealing is stella ..(cpes).. though I'm still looking because I'd like to meet my grandchildren .

[Back Beach]

When you guys talk about sealing with some of the above mentioned epoxies are you dipping the plugs or brushing it on?

[JFigliuolo]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

When you guys talk about seling with some of the above mentioned epoxies are you dipping the plugs or brushing it on?

depends. straight etex is brushed on. I thin Etex w/Denatured Alcohol and I pour the mix from one cup to another pouring it over/through the plug. Not sure how CPES is applied, most likely one of the above methods.

[ProfessorM]

Mike I heat the plug in the micro or oven till nice and warm. I use system 3 to seal, same stuff I use for my top coat. It is very thin so i have not thinned it. I like to use an exhaust fan to vent the fumes as when it hits the hot wood it smells pretty strong, after the wood cools the smell goes away quickly. Not as smelly as Eddies stuff. He sealed me some nikes a few years ago and mailed them to me a few days later and I could smell them thru the box in the mailbox outdoors , but it worked very good. IMO I think you get almost the same results with the epoxy. Mix your epoxy put on some cheap gloves and i paint it on with a cheap foam brush. This is a messy job so be aware of this. I make sure I get it in the thru hole with cheap pipe cleaners and the lip slot too. I wait several minutes and then wipe off any excess. Make sure you get excess out of lip slot and eye sockets and grommet areas as once it sets up you aren't going to get it out. I also adjust my grommet holes to accommodate the tighter fit caused by the hard epoxy. I do small batches. I hang up to dry but don't forget to take out hanging wire as it will be in there forever if you leave it in there too long. I have used this for softwoods for several years and have always like it. I don't bother using it much for AYC, which is what I mostly use. I do use it for most of my spooks, howdys though. I basically asked about it for maple, birch, as i have never done it for a hard wood, yet. Tomorrow i will try a few. Thanks guys. P.

[ProfessorM]

Some use the CPES in a ziplock bag and throw the plugs in and let it soak in. It is very thin.

[Diggin Jiggin]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

Mike I heat the plug in the micro or oven till nice and warm. I use system 3 to seal, same stuff I use for my top coat. It is very thin so i have not thinned it. I like to use an exhaust fan to vent the fumes as when it hits the hot wood it smells pretty strong, after the wood cools the smell goes away quickly. Not as smelly as Eddies stuff. He sealed me some nikes a few years ago and mailed them to me a few days later and I could smell them thru the box in the mailbox outdoors , but it worked very good. IMO I think you get almost the same results with the epoxy. Mix your epoxy put on some cheap gloves and i paint it on with a cheap foam brush. This is a messy job so be aware of this. I make sure I get it in the thru hole with cheap pipe cleaners and the lip slot too. I wait several minutes and then wipe off any excess. Make sure you get excess out of lip slot and eye sockets and grommet areas as once it sets up you aren't going to get it out. I also adjust my grommet holes to accommodate the tighter fit caused by the hard epoxy. I do small batches. I hang up to dry but don't forget to take out hanging wire as it will be in there forever if you leave it in there too long. I have used this for softwoods for several years and have always like it. I don't bother using it much for AYC, which is what I mostly use. I do use it for most of my spooks, howdys though. I basically asked about it for maple, birch, as i have never done it for a hard wood, yet. Tomorrow i will try a few. Thanks guys. P.

If the grommets won't fit as there is excess sealer in the hole, if you heat a grommet up the heat lets it slide right in... I hold the grommet in a set of small vice grips, & heat it w/ a small propane torch for just a few seconds.

[WoodyCT]

It's death in liquid form but can be stored in a plastic bag w/o eating it?

You heard it hear first.
Thought of it on my way to work today. Use a tintable epoxy. Tint it white, yellow or black. Epoxy seal plug. After cure, lightly sand and wipe clean with DA. Brush on more of the tinted epoxy if needed to even out color. Spin/flip until cured. Apply/paint eye. Clear coat with same epoxy minus the tint.



Won't work for multicolored scaled striped sissy plugs however.

[numbskull]

Won't matter how you seal it, Paul, as long as it weighs 2.3 oz when you are done.

[PNG]

Originally Posted by WoodyCT

It's death in liquid form but can be stored in a plastic bag w/o eating it?

Ive been using cpes in limited applications for awhile. I wanted something that would toughen up swamp cedar without adding weight and it does just that. Havent tried with a hardwood yet.
I use a hvy duty zip lock bag. I have had lesser bags leak. Outside or at works heated garage, it does have a certain odor which I believe to be the high VOC's which is why as an epoxy it has the consistancy of kerosene and not molasses like envirotex etc.
Another nice thing about it is to seal the bag when done - keep cool and second dip the next day if there is any leftover.

[ProfessorM]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Won't matter how you seal it, Paul, as long as it weighs 2.3 oz when you are done.

the pressure is on. Come on 2.3

[ProfessorM]

Originally Posted by Diggin Jiggin

If the grommets won't fit as there is excess sealer in the hole, if you heat a grommet up the heat lets it slide right in... I hold the grommet in a set of small vice grips, & heat it w/ a small propane torch for just a few seconds.

that is a good tip, although I allow for the hole shrinkage with a larger hole but i will use that next time if i end up in a bind.

[Tagger]

CPES ... I cut the bottom off a water bottle .. mix in there .. I have pumps on resin and hardener that deliver 1 ounce each ,, so I'm mixing 2 ounces ,, i think ? .. I brush on with an acid brush and use hypodermics (woodcraft) to pump stuff threw ... do like 8 - 10 plugs at a time 12 max..

[GattaFish]

Originally Posted by WoodyCT

You heard it hear first.
Thought of it on my way to work today. Use a tintable epoxy. Tint it white, yellow or black. Epoxy seal plug. After cure, lightly sand and wipe clean with DA. Brush on more of the tinted epoxy if needed to even out color. Spin/flip until cured. Apply/paint eye. Clear coat with same epoxy minus the tint.

Won't work for multicolored scaled striped sissy plugs however.

Jon,,,, that was two years ago for me,,,,

[chrisjoe13]

"Cons: mess."

When wearing latex gloves, a plug lathered up in thinned epoxy is very slippery! Make sure to have a good grip. I dropped a plug last week while doing this. It, of course, had to hit the cup of epoxy I was pouring into. I now have a small water proof spot on my basement floor.

[stripermaineiac]

LOL just one . With all the rod building and fly tying on top of plug building now I had to chip all the dots off the floor as it was getting slippery. Ron

[stripermaineiac]

Question ProffesorM. When you guys are talking plug weights is that with hooks or without?I've been between 2.5-2.7 and 3.5-3.7 -n many of mine such as needles and pencils but thats with the hooks and hackle plus a wolverine split ring in the middle.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

the pressure is on. Come on 2.3

Darters are very weight sensitive, Paul. If you are trying to make a true copy you need to get the weight close. 2.3 will run 2.6 wired and finished, and 3.0 with 3/0 hooks. I can't speak for what happens if you go too light, but I've got about 20 finished bodies that ended up 2.6-2.7 and they don't make functional plugs, even rigged with 2/0s (with 3/0's they sink tail first).

Remember, the originals were hard maple (I believe). If you use soft maple you will be light unless the sealer adds weight.

[stripermaineiac]

Numbskull,Try putting a 4/0 on the front and a 6/0 siwash on the tail . I had to do this with some tattoos a while back . Got the idea from a freind on the vineyard.Made a big difference on how they tracked. Ron

[ProfessorM]

thanks G. I know there is a fine line between good and bad with these plugs as there is no weight added and you are at the mercy of the wood. I will be happy if out of the 10 i did I get 4 that are good. If they come out too light I will just add more epoxy or more soak time to get the required weight but as you noted if they are too light it will be pretty much impossible to rectify that issue, but the wood stove will be happy and thanks for the idea of the weighting technique too Mr. Maineiac.