The Apology Tour continues

[JohnR]

[spence]

A few points...

1) We're trying to "win" so the troops can come home
2) Most of the people there didn't ask for us to come or stay
3) It's astounding that someone didn't know this would be seen as incredibly insulting and used against us

If there's an apology necessary, perhaps someone should tell Obama they're sorry for jeopardizing the mission.

-spence

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

A few points...

1) We're trying to "win" so the troops can come home
2) Most of the people there didn't ask for us to come or stay
3) It's astounding that someone didn't know this would be seen as incredibly insulting and used against us

If there's an apology necessary, perhaps someone should tell Obama they're sorry for jeopardizing the mission.

-spence

A few Counter Points

1) It cannot be won and hasn't been able to be won for a little while now. Victory by any reasonable definition other than political expediency ain't happening.
2) Pretty sure everyone in New York and their friends and family didn't want the people harbored in AFG to pay them a visit a little over ten years ago.
3) It sounds like it was poorly handled but I have little sympathy when the detainees / Taliban use their holy places, Qurans, and various religious goods to further their effort.

Apologize to Obama? Really?

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

1) It cannot be won and hasn't been able to be won for a little while now. Victory by any reasonable definition other than political expediency ain't happening.

And why I put win in quotes. Our mission is to leave the place with some sort of stability, which appears now to be more of a political challenge than a military one. Regardless I'd think think everyone would still be focused on mission success however it's defined.

2) Pretty sure everyone in New York and their friends and family didn't want the people harbored in AFG to pay them a visit a little over ten years ago.

The people protesting the burning had nothing to do with 9/11. While some like to mock the "hearts and minds" aspect to fighting an insurgency, it would appear as though the military strategists certainly find it important.

"Never Forget" is a slippery slope to self righteousness if left unchecked. The situation in Afghanistan today really needs to be managed from a forward looking position.

3) It sounds like it was poorly handled but I have little sympathy when the detainees / Taliban use their holy places, Qurans, and various religious goods to further their effort.

Iran is an Islamic Republic. The issue at hand has nothing to do with the detainees, their own desecration of the Koran or Taliban hypocrisy. It's about how we manage the appearance of respect for the same people we're trying to help get in line so we can stage a controlled exit.

Apologize to Obama? Really?

Sure. He inherited a pretty big challenge as President and decisions like this aren't helping him do his job. Same goes for others like Gingrich who has little more than the same leftist defeatism offered to Bush. I'm sure Karzai (as corrupt as he is) is probably head in hands going WTF people???

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Spence, you are at least consistent, I'll give you that...

"Most of the people there didn't ask for us to come or stay"

Spence, what we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan is liberate millions of innocent Muslims from other, monstrous Muslims. I was there, as you probably know. I still get letters from some of the families I met, thanking the US for making their lives so much better than they were before. We were literally the answer to their prayers.

"It's astounding that someone didn't know this would be seen as incredibly insulting and used against us"

No, what's astounding is that liberals like you are so backwards and devoid of logic, that all you can do is talk about how horrible it is that someone would accidentally desecrate the Koran. You and you ilk somehow fail to see that the tragedy here isn't that a book got burned. The tragedy is that large numbers of Muslims feel that a few pages of paper are worth more than dozens of innocent lives, and YOU REFUSE TO CALL THEM ON THAT. If Obama had a shred of integrity or honor, he'd tell these Muslims that they should be kissing the feet of every single American soldier they see. Instead, when a bookgets burned, they use that as an excuse to commit mass murder. But because Muslims have been anointed with "victim" status by liberals like you, you won't hold them accountable for silly, insignificant transgressions like mass murder.

Hence my statement that liberalism is a mental disorder. Instead of decrying the mass murder, you (and Obama) apologize for the fact that some paper got burned. You people are completely, completely insane.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, what we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan is liberate millions of innocent Muslims from other, monstrous Muslims. I was there, as you probably know. I still get letters from some of the families I met, thanking the US for making their lives so much better than they were before. We were literally the answer to their prayers.

I'm sure some are quite thankful and getting letters like that must be personally very gratifying.

But in the context of this specific issue we're talking about a much less educated population with a more primative social and economic strucuture.

Do you think the people protesting are making a reasoned cost/benefit decision about their actions?

No, what's astounding is that liberals like you are so backwards and devoid of logic, that all you can do is talk about how horrible it is that someone would accidentally desecrate the Koran. You and you ilk somehow fail to see that the tragedy here isn't that a book got burned. The tragedy is that large numbers of Muslims feel that a few pages of paper are worth more than dozens of innocent lives, and YOU REFUSE TO CALL THEM ON THAT. If Obama had a shred of integrity or honor, he'd tell these Muslims that they should be kissing the feet of every single American soldier they see. Instead, when a bookgets burned, they use that as an excuse to commit mass murder. But because Muslims have been anointed with "victim" status by liberals like you, you won't hold them accountable for silly, insignificant transgressions like mass murder.

I'm not refusing to not call anyone out for unecessarily violent behavior, although the point might be so what if someone does?

Do you think a verbal lashing by Obama over their behavior is going to talk some sense into them or just reinforce the image of an imperialist presence which helps the Taliban?

Hence my statement that liberalism is a mental disorder. Instead of decrying the mass murder, you (and Obama) apologize for the fact that some paper got burned. You people are completely, completely insane.

No, it's a quite rational position. If the perception is that you're anti-Islam, it makes sense to ensure you correct actions that reinforce this perception...however wrong it may be. Otherwise you're going to spend all your chits on the stupid stuff instead of when you really need them.

The point of all this is to help the Afgan government maintain some sense of stability so they can further develop their own security aparatus. If a little PR is necessary to help get past a bump in the road that would seem to be in line with the mission success.

As usual, you're seeing the issue you want to see rather than what's really at the heart of the matter.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm sure some are quite thankful and getting letters like that must be personally very gratifying.

But in the context of this specific issue we're talking about a much less educated population with a more primative social and economic strucuture.

Do you think the people protesting are making a reasoned cost/benefit decision about their actions?


I'm not refusing to not call anyone out for unecessarily violent behavior, although the point might be so what if someone does?

Do you think a verbal lashing by Obama over their behavior is going to talk some sense into them or just reinforce the image of an imperialist presence which helps the Taliban?


No, it's a quite rational position. If the perception is that you're anti-Islam, it makes sense to ensure you correct actions that reinforce this perception...however wrong it may be. Otherwise you're going to spend all your chits on the stupid stuff instead of when you really need them.

The point of all this is to help the Afgan government maintain some sense of stability so they can further develop their own security aparatus. If a little PR is necessary to help get past a bump in the road that would seem to be in line with the mission success.

As usual, you're seeing the issue you want to see rather than what's really at the heart of the matter.

-spence

"Do you think a verbal lashing by Obama over their behavior is going to talk some sense into them"

I don't think Obama, nor anyone else, can convince these sociopaths that a few pieces of paper are not worth more than dozens of human lives. This is where you ALMOST stubled into the truth. In my opinion, if somepne is willing to kill innocent people over the loss of a piece of paper, that psycho needs to be dealt with. You, on the other hand, want to coddle the psycho.

And a lecture from Obama about why human life is worth more than a piece of paper? While such a lecture will have no impact on Islamic fanatics, it would at least give peace of mind to the families of murdered servicemen that the commander-in-chief realizes that the atrocity here WAS NOT that paper got burned. Rather, the atrocity was the murder that followed. Obama is telling the fanatics, by apologizing, that the accidental burning of a book warrants death.

"I'm not refusing to not call anyone out for unecessarily violent behavior"

Funny, since you still haven't called anyone out for violent behavior.

"you're seeing the issue you want to see "

As usual, you could not be more wrong. When Islamic extremists kill innocent servicemen because somepone else accidentally burned a piece of paper, THE VERY LAST THING I WANT TO SEE is my president apologizing to the murderers. What I want to see is a cruise missile shoved up their aszz.

As usual, YOU are the one ignoring the facts that don't serve your agenda.

"to help get past a bump in the road ..."

A bump in the road? That's what you call the mass murder of completely innocent US servicemen? Those guys suit up every day to keep yuo safe, and all they ask is that you show some shred of respect for the sacrifices which they answer the call to make. Sacrifices which, I'll wager, you're not nearly up to the task of making...

I cannot fathom a sitting US President apologizing to those who murder US Servicemen. It's stupifying.

Spence, it's too bad for Hitler that you weren't the US Secretary Of State in 1940..."Heck, if we need to let him cook a few million jews in order to placate him, who are we to say he's wrong? Since we cannot explain to Hitler why his actions are wrong, let's instead apologoze to Hitler for all the bad things the Jews did to his master race, and then we can all get along."

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don't think Obama, nor anyone else, can concince these sociopaths that a few pieces of paper are not worth more than dozens of human lives. This is where you ALMOST stubled into the truth. In my opinion, if somepne is willing to kill innocent people over the loss of a piece of paper, that psycho needs to be dealt with. You, on the other hand, want to coddle the psycho.

And a lecture from Obama about why human life is worth more than a piece of paper? While such a lecture will have no impact on Islamic fanatics, it would at least give peace of mind to the families of murdered servicemen that the commander-in-chief realizes that tyhe atrocity WAS NOT that paper got burned. Rather, the atrocity was the murder that followed. Obama is telling the fanatics, by apologizing, that the accidental burning of a book warrants death.

While the sensativities of the family members are important, the President is also responsible for the 90 thousand other service people still in harms way. If they believe an appology is the best tactic to further the mission there should be some respect for that. I'd be confident that this response was carefully planned and not some capitulation to fit a liberal stereotype.

I'd note that the Afgan Government appologized for the killings along with the US Government condemming "it in the strongest possible terms".

There should be no confusion that Obama was appologizing to the murders...that's not reading the facts.

Funny, since you still haven't called anyone out for violent behavior.

Actually, by mentioning "uncesessarily violent behavior" I was explicitly labeling the "behavior" as "unecessary violence".

As usual, you could not be more wrong. When Islamic extremists kill innocent servicemen because somepone else accidentally burned a piece of paper, THE VERY LAST THING I WANT TO SEE is my president apologizing to the murderers. What I want to see is a cruise missile shoved up their aszz.

Launch a cruise missle at who?

A bump in the road? That's what you call the mass murder of completely innocent US servicemen? Those guys suit up every day to keep yuo safe, and all they ask is that you show some shred of respect for the sacrifices which they answer the call to make.

It's a figure of speech, but perhaps a bad choice of words. The point is we need to get past the events and violence to keep the mission on track.

Spence, it's too bad for Hitler that you weren't the US Secretary Of State in 1940..."Heck, if we need to let him cook a few million jews in order to placate him, who are we to say he's wrong? Let's apologoze to Hitler for all the bad things the Jews did to his master race, and then we can all get along."

And he plays the Nazi card!

Remember here we're 10 years into a war that we'd really like to get out of. While we've been very successful in killing terrorists a military solution to the Taliban doesn't appear likely. Without the political support of the Afgani government and tribal leaders we're never going to have a smooth draw down. The PR battle here is critical.

We need to wind this thing down but some still want to position it as the Battle of Civilizations Bush's cronies postured after 9/11.

Others just want to play politics.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

While the sensativities of the family members are important, the President is also responsible for the 90 thousand other service people still in harms way. If they believe an appology is the best tactic to further the mission there should be some respect for that. I'd be confident that this response was carefully planned and not some capitulation to fit a liberal stereotype.

I'd note that the Afgan Government appologized for the killings along with the US Government condemming "it in the strongest possible terms".

There should be no confusion that Obama was appologizing to the murders...that's not reading the facts.


Actually, by mentioning "uncesessarily violent behavior" I was explicitly labeling the "behavior" as "unecessary violence".


Launch a cruise missle at who?


It's a figure of speech, but perhaps a bad choice of words. The point is we need to get past the events and violence to keep the mission on track.


And he plays the Nazi card!

Remember here we're 10 years into a war that we'd really like to get out of. While we've been very successful in killing terrorists a military solution to the Taliban doesn't appear likely. Without the political support of the Afgani government and tribal leaders we're never going to have a smooth draw down. The PR battle here is critical.

We need to wind this thing down but some still want to position it as the Battle of Civilizations Bush's cronies postured after 9/11.

Others just want to play politics.

-spence

"the President is also responsible for the 90 thousand other service people still in harms way."

Yes, he is. And if apologizing to the murderers, rather than bringing them to justice, is what makes our troops safer, please explain how. Because I fail to see how.

"If they believe an appology is the best tactic to further the mission there should be some respect for that."

Oh, I see. So now you, Spence, are assuming that some sizable portion of our troops believe that we should be appeasing those who murder our troops, rather than killing them? By what divine right do you make that claim? By any chance, do you have some polls or US servicemen who think the best thing is to appease Islamic sociopaths, rather than bringing them to their knees?

Spence, you are entitled to your own opinions, inane as they may be. You are not entitled to your own facts, and there are no facts (nor any common sense) to suggest that coddling Al Queda makes us any safer. If Obama had a brain, he would realize that to maximize our safety, you destroy these people BEFORE they build up their capabilities.

"There should be no confusion that Obama was appologizing to the murders"

That's precisely what he did. Worse, by apoloigizing, he lends credibility to the insane notion that it's justifiable to be enraged if someone accidentally burns a piece of paper. It was a simple accident, nothing more. Obama went out of his way to suggest that those who burned the Koran would be punished, but he offers NO ASSURANCES that those who murdered US servicemen would be punished? Those are the facts Spence. Just because they make your guy look stupid, doesn't mean they aren't facts.

"Launch a cruise missle at who?"

Oh, I dunno. For starters, at anyone who believes that a piece of paper is worth more than innocent lives.

"The point is we need to get past the events and violence to keep the mission on track. "

Jesus God Almighty man!!! What color is the sky in the world you live in? The BAD GUYS, not us, committed the violence in this case. You're willing to say "sorry" and call it a day? What do you say to the families of the next innocent victim, knowing you did nothing to prevent further attacks?

Spence, there are bad people out there that you cannot wish away, nor can you ever make them leave you alone by bowing to them. When someone pulls a gun on you, it's a bit late for formal negotiations. Fortunately for you, there are thousands of Americans who understand that, and volunteer to deal with it.

I didn't play the "Nazi" card, don't pin that label on me. I said, correctly, that your solution to dealing with these homicidal maniacs is to try to make them like us. That fact has impacted me, and other soldiers, more than it will ever impact you. I wish there were no bad people in the world, I wish there was no need for a military or a police force. But I recognize the existence of evil, and I know you don't make it go away by coddling it. Eventually, you have to deal with it. Fortunately for you, when that time comes, it won't be YOU that has to un-do the damage of that failed appeasement. Other brave soldiers will step up to clean up the mess created by those like you, with their heads in the sand.

Spence, your claim that "we" need to end the violence shows the absurdity of your position. To start off, so that I am clear, are you American? If so, then "we" do not need to end the violence, because "we" did not start the violence (please look up the events of 09/11 as a refresher). "We" would happily lay down our arms today if our adversaries would do the same. "We" are not perpetuating the violence in the Middle East, Islamic fanatics are perpetuating the violence there. Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.

[Raven]

they won't stop
it's time to repeat
shock and awe
make them wave their underwear to surrender
they are getting bolder by the day
when and where? do you say enough of this s h i t

[spence]

Interesting, it looks like a number of conservatives think Obama took the right course...

Former Pentagon Official And AEI Scholar Michael Rubin: Obama "Was Right To Apologize" For Quran Burning. From the February 25 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends Saturday

Retired General Jack Keane Repeatedly Told Fox That Obama Was "Absolutely" Right To Apologize For Quran Burning. From the February 24 edition of Fox News' America Live

Conservative Foreign Policy Pundit Victor Davis Hanson: "It Is Unfair To Criticize Obama For Apologizing." From a February 27 National Review Online post by conservative foreign policy pundit, Victor Davis Hanson, a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution

AEI Expert On Afghanistan Ahmad Majidyar: The U.S. Is Taking The Right Approach By Stressing The Sincerity Of Its Remorse. A FoxNews.com article reported that Ahmad Majidyar, a senior research associate with the American Enterprise Institute focusing on South Asia and the Middle East, stated that "the U.S. is taking the right approach by stressing the sincerity of its remorse." From the article:

Heritage Foundation Expert On Afghanistan Lisa Curtis: Obama Dealt With Quran Burning "Appropriately."

Now, I understand there are multiple viewpoints here. The issue of course is that Obama's "liberal mental disorder" causes him to see the Islamist murderers as the real victim.

If that was really the case I'm not sure why all these non-Liberals would be saying what they are.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Interesting, it looks like a number of conservatives think Obama took the right course...



Now, I understand there are multiple viewpoints here. The issue of course is that Obama's "liberal mental disorder" causes him to see the Islamist murderers as the real victim.

If that was really the case I'm not sure why all these non-Liberals would be saying what they are.

-spence

Spence, you say you're aware of more than one point of view, yet you are acknowledging the validity of one point of view. Yours. Very open-minded of you.

I didn't mean to say that we should refuse to apologize for the accidental burning of the Koran. I'm not suggesting Obama should have said to all Muslims "nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah!". What I'm saying is this...the accidental burning of pieces of paper is absolutely trivial, meaningless, in comparison to the barbaric mass muder that subsequently took place. Let's put both occurrences in the proper perspective. In my opinion, Obama as usual, was more concerned with apologizing to his perceived victims (offended Muslims), than he was with looking after the actual victims (families of murdered servicemen). And as usual, I didn't see anywhere near the appropriate condemnation of the murder from the Muslim community.

The symptoms of Obama's mental disorder is this...he should have said "I'm sorry that pople were offended that the book got burned, and we will take reasonable steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. However, no civilized person, or religion, can use the burning of paper to justify the mass murder of innocent civilians. And while I regret that the Koran got burned, let's not forget the thousands of NATO troops who gave their lives to free innocent Muslims from other, monstrous, Muslims. 'no greater love have man than he who lays down his life to free another'. That most noble sacrifice isn't tarnished because someone burned a book by accident. Those who committed these subsequent atrocoties will most assuredly face our swift and severe justice."

Spence, THAT is what a man of honor and courage says. THAT is what the commander-in-chief is supposed to say. If Obama wants Muslims worldwide to elect him homecoming king, he is in the wrong job for that. The primary responsibility of the US president is to protect US interests. If our interests confilct with someone else's interests, he would do well to remember whose interests he was elected to serve.

Tell me I'm wrong, Spence...

[PaulS]

Santorum thinks that since the destruction of the Koran was done in error, we shouldn't apologize. I guess he thinks you only need to apologize for intentional transgressions. I'm going to send that logic to our claims dept. and state that if the injury is a result of an accident, don't pay the claim.

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Santorum thinks that since the destruction of the Koran was done in error, we shouldn't apologize. I guess he thinks you only need to apologize for intentional transgressions. I'm going to send that logic to our claims dept. and state that if the injury is a result of an accident, don't pay the claim.

I can understand the viewpoint that says never apologize for anything. You don't see the Israelis offering up the novigosh very often.

But this isn't about strategy, it's about mental disorder.

-spence

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by spence

novigosh

Is that some sort of dip you send someone to apologize?

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Is that some sort of dip you send someone to apologize?

I think it's Yiddish for "sorry" but I can't be sure the usage is correct. Google ain't good like that.

-spence