pelosi won’t budge

[Jim in CT]

trump offered democrats extended amnesty for daca folks in exchange for the wall and other types of security. pelosi says it’s a non starter.

there’s no compromising with her, declare the emergency and end it. she hates him more than she wants to get past this. then
let the lawsuits begin.

[Got Stripers]

Trump made his bed and the new congress is going to make him lie in it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

You missed Temporary and that Trump’s offer is something that was previously rejected
The house will pass bills to reopen the government this week
The House speaker included several border security measures her party would support, including increased infrastructure investments at ports of entry, advanced technology to detect drugs and other contraband and increased customs personnel and immigration judges.

"Next week, Democrats will pass a package of six bills agreed to by House and Senate negotiators and other legislation to re-open government so that we can fully negotiate on border security proposals. The President must sign these bills to re-open government immediately and stop holding the American people hostage with this senseless shutdown," Pelosi said.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

You missed Temporary and that Trump’s offer is something that was previously rejected
The house will pass bills to reopen the government this week
The House speaker included several border security measures her party would support, including increased infrastructure investments at ports of entry, advanced technology to detect drugs and other contraband and increased customs personnel and immigration judges.

"Next week, Democrats will pass a package of six bills agreed to by House and Senate negotiators and other legislation to re-open government so that we can fully negotiate on border security proposals. The President must sign these bills to re-open government immediately and stop holding the American people hostage with this senseless shutdown," Pelosi said.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

a bill to reopen the govt without the wall, is about as likely to pass as the republican bills a few years ago, to defund obamacare. a waste of time.

trumps compromise
also called for
anti drug detection, improvements at ports of entry, and
more asylum court judges. his compromise had all that. plus the wall.

he offered a compromise. as you said, elections have consequences, and he’s an azz for not doing this two years ago. and the democrats are now opposed to the wall they supported in 2006 and 2013. both sides are jerks. we need to elect different kinds of people.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

pete, last time i took civics, the speaker doesn’t tell the president what he “must” do. she’s every bit as responsible for this as he is, let him extend the walls ( and like they wanted in 2006 and 2013)
like he wants and the govt opens tomorrow. elections have consequences, and he won in 2016 largely on this issue. can’t deny that.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

pete, last time i took civics, the speaker doesn’t tell the president what he “must” do. she’s every bit as responsible for this as he is, let him extend the walls ( and like they wanted in 2006 and 2013)
like he wants and the govt opens tomorrow. elections have consequences, and he won in 2016 largely on this issue. can’t deny that.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Last time I took civics there were 3 equal branches of goverment

The only person I see telling people what they must do is Trump

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Last time I took civics there were 3 equal branches of goverment

OK. SO by what rule of civics can she order him, right now, to abandon the wall and end the shutdown?

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK. SO by what rule of civics can she order him, right now, to abandon the wall and end the shutdown?

It's called a Bill

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

pete, last time i took civics, the speaker doesn’t tell the president what he “must” do. she’s every bit as responsible for this as he is, let him extend the walls ( and like they wanted in 2006 and 2013)
like he wants and the govt opens tomorrow. elections have consequences, and he won in 2016 largely on this issue. can’t deny that.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

He lost the house, and is on track to lose the Senate
Things change
The support is not there for a wall other than his blindly following base
and Lindbaugh, Coulter and Hannity who control his mind.
The big wall scenario is the modern equivalent of battleships, impressive to see but quite illogical
Remember to make walls effective, thousands of years ago they added things to make them work, moats, ramparts, etc
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

He lost the house, and is on track to lose the Senate
Things change
The support is not there for a wall other than his blindly following base
and Lindbaugh, Coulter and Hannity who control his mind.
The big wall scenario is the modern equivalent of battleships, impressive to see but quite illogical
Remember to make walls effective, thousands of years ago they added things to make them work, moats, ramparts, etc
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The wall is a 1st century solution to a 21st century problem.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The wall is a 1st century solution to a 21st century problem.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Take time to look at some successes other nations have had with walls and you will find out they do exactly what they are intended to do. Or just keep spouting regurgitated nonsense and prove you are not paying attention.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Take time to look at some successes other nations have had with walls and you will find out they do exactly what they are intended to do. Or just keep spouting regurgitated nonsense and prove you are not paying attention.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Take time to realize that the wall is nothing more than a monument to white supremacy. Take time to learn that the 1% in this country are a greater threat to your prosperity than the Mexican who just wants to come here and make you great burritos and the truth shall set you free.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Take time to look at some successes other nations have had with walls and you will find out they do exactly what they are intended to do. Or just keep spouting regurgitated nonsense and prove you are not paying attention.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I looked and couldn’t really find any. Israel is an outlier, they have a milaritized fortification heavily guarded, you could never replicate that here, oh it’s also illegal.

How about we take reasonable measures and also focus on root causes to illegal migration.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The wall is a 1st century solution to a 21st century problem.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you read that on a bumper sticker

[Got Stripers]

He owns it, you can color it anyway you want, but he brought this on himself. He is fing the government workers who will never recover if this drags on, houses will be lost, jobs lost, marriages might be lost over the stress and credit ratings will be trashed.

Today it was reported that furlowed workers are being called back in to complete the necessary paperwork and permitting that oil and gas companies need to keep making money. Priorities baby, he couldn’t give a rats arse about the millions suffering over list campaign promise shut down.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

Here is one engineer’s reasoning of why a wall won’t work

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....amp/17599.html

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

http://fronterasdesk.org/sites/defau...ump%20Wall.pdf

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. 🤷🏻#^&♀️
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Here is one engineer’s reasoning of why a wall won’t work

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....amp/17599.html

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

http://fronterasdesk.org/sites/defau...ump%20Wall.pdf

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. 🤷🏻#^&♀️
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

ask your expert why walls worked in San Diego and Yuma? Were there ecological disasters?

"It’s not effective."

Again, why did it work in San Diego and Yuma, but wont be effective elsewhere? Please be specific?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

ask your expert why walls worked in San Diego and Yuma? Were there ecological disasters?

"It’s not effective."

Again, why did it work in San Diego and Yuma, but wont be effective elsewhere? Please be specific?

I love how Jim cites Yuma, a section of wall in a desert where nearly 400 just passed under in a tunnel.

Good show Jim.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I love how Jim cites Yuma, a section of wall in a desert where nearly 400 just passed under in a tunnel.

Good show Jim.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

yuma, where illegal crossing arrests dropped over 90 percent after the wall was built. no one said it was reduced 100 percent. try some of that critical thinking perhaps.

spence, i think your problem, is that obviously you can’t differentiate between the word “reduce” and the word “eliminate.”. that’s it.

the wall will reduce illegal crossings and the problems that go along with it. the data shows that with zero ambiguity. it will not eliminate illegal crossings. is that too fast for you?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

yuma, where illegal crossing arrests dropped over 90 percent after the wall was built. no one said it was reduced 100 percent. try some of that critical thinking perhaps.

spence, i think your problem, is that obviously you can’t differentiate between the word “reduce” and the word “eliminate.”. that’s it.

the wall will reduce illegal crossings and the problems that go along with it. the data shows that with zero ambiguity. it will not eliminate illegal crossings. is that too fast for you?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Big reason border crossings dropped at Yuma is because illegal immigration has dropped dramatically due to changing economics and the fact that many just tried to cross in other places.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Americans overwhelmingly support DACA and are against the wall. I don’t see how a 3 year extension in exchange for wasting billions is any sort of a compromise. Trump keeps digging into an increasingly untenable position because he doesn’t know what he’s doing and has Mitch just enabling his bad behavior.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[wdmso]

Trump made no concession he made an offer of extension not resolution on the DAC issue
He knows the senate won't pass anything from the house ,, that looks or remotely sound alike ammesty. . Which will play into his 2020 open border mantra campaign message

It's all a smoke show..

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Trump made no concession he made an offer of extension not resolution on the DAC issue
He knows the senate won't pass anything from the house ,, that looks or remotely sound alike ammesty. . Which will play into his 2020 open border mantra campaign message

It's all a smoke show..

you may be right. maybe he needs to offer more. the conservative wing of the gop thinks he offered too much. that could
be a stunt too. i honestly don’t have a sense for the magnitude of what he offered.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Trump made no concession he made an offer of extension not resolution on the DAC issue
He knows the senate won't pass anything from the house ,, that looks or remotely sound alike ammesty. . Which will play into his 2020 open border mantra campaign message

It's all a smoke show..

this is a smoke show https://www.barstoolsports.com/barst...iami-kikipasso

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

this is a smoke show https://www.barstoolsports.com/barst...iami-kikipasso

You are correct

[Nebe]

The solution is to vote out every parasite in Washington that has been there for longer than 8 years. Flush the toilet. Any by this I mean a double flush.... both sides.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The solution is to vote out every parasite in Washington that has been there for longer than 8 years. Flush the toilet. Any by this I mean a double flush.... both sides.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

flush twice, then blow up the toilet so they can’t ever come
back.

that is the solution, absolutely.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

here ya go, spence...

https://m.theepochtimes.com/sheriff-...t_2749236.html
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

If somebody breaks in to your home or place of business Nebe,do you instantly wonder what color they were? Or even care? Because if you do that says more about you. I am also the trusting type. Never lock doors or vehicles and just pretend everything is cool. It came back to bite me last year when an oz of fresh Buddha got lifted from my truck in the driveway. The unwelcome visitor also went into my garage and took Kim’s pocketbook from her car.Shame on me was my conclusion,too trusting. They caught the person who was a habitual offender, I know what color he was but that really didn’t matter. An ounce of prevention would have saved an oz...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Sea Dangles]

Not sure what the best way to fix the problem is,but a fence or wall of sorts is a good place to start.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device