black salties-cannot ship to ri

[parker23]

Hey Gang,
I rec'd a call from Anderson Bait (blk salties farm). My order that was scheduled for delivery Friday am has been canceled.

An interim director at the DEM must perform "his own studies" before he will let them into RI waters. Texas A&M Univ helped develop this fish and has given their blessing over the distribution of the fish.

These fish are large goldfish. How many pet stores sell goldfish? How many pet stores sell much more exotic fish than goldfish??

I have 2 calls into this guy at the DEM. If I do not receive a reply by noon Friday, I will post his contact info.
This winter, I have done alot of research on this bait. They are glorified goldfish, that's it. Their size comes from the amount of food they are fed.

I have spoken to the good folks at Anderson and they are very frustrated. They had permission from the past director that left at end of the year. Now the new guy will not allow them until he has performed his own studies. This new guy does not have any advanced degrees in Marine Fisheries and he will not accept studies by performed by premier Universities in Texas and California. If it is ok in the state of California, that has been on the environment's side of all issues, then in my humble opinion RI should welcome the new bait.

I will have all contact info on this site if i have not rec'd a response from the DEM fellow.

I am the first guy to follow the rules of the road. I do not keep short fish, I do not litter and I respect other boaters on the water. I am a little ticked at the new DEM fellow that decides that the former director's opinion based on years of expereince holds no merit.

See you at noon Friday.
Bruce

[spence]

Mass doesn't allow these to be imported...right?

Unless the previous director had documented his decision, I'd be suprised if the new director didn't want to ensure this was the right move for the State.

If he just rubberstamped something without understanding or legal basis, he wouldn't be doing his job.

-spence

[likwid]

Spence is right, and what does it matter if he dosen't have the degree?

I'd rather they not allow it until ANY research is done than allow it and screw up the ecosystem more somehow.

You know, kinda like letting herring boats in Narr Bay?

[Striperhound]

Look at the Providence Journal online, Tom Meade sang the praises of Black Salties this week as well. Will he have to run a retraction?

[slapshot]

Why bust the guys balls, he is only doing his job. I don't think they are allowed in CT either. In fact we have had more than 3 years of herring restrictions. We still catch huge fish, just need to improvise with what is available. There are plenty of locally available baits that will catch without having them shipped from out of State.

[Adamfishes]

http://www.oceanstatetackle.com/

says they got em

[spence]

Originally Posted by Adamfishes

http://www.oceanstatetackle.com/

says they got em

Well, it's on the site...but it doesn't actually say they have them.

I would assume an import permit is required to transport them into the state. If the past director gave them a verbal "ok" but they never actually got the permit it would certainly explain their problems

-spence

[ThrowingTimber]

Went into the shop mentioned two posts up yesterday I know Dave and Nina (shop owners) pretty well and went for no bs see for myself type of deal. They do intend to carry them. They did not have any at the shop as they are being held up. Nina did mention that they are sterilized during the breeding process.

Dave, did have a recent outing where he had 48 of them and landed 52 bass on them.

I was curious as to their size. Im a shad/ bluefish guy for the most part but I dont like to get locked into something where I overlook other stuff. So I went and checked it out.

[CaptDom]

An awful lot of time and energy was spent in June of 2005 to educate and inform the state of the history, taxonomy, and research that has gone into this baitfish. The state issued a permit in late June 2005 to Anderson farms for the importation of this baitfish via FedEx, it has since been placed on temporary hold.
The RI DEM did not circulate the info, and as a result now that widespread distribution is intended, they want to meet on this issue to consider all factors. RI Title 20-11-7 clearly defines a minnow as the young of any freshwater species not of the prohibited mentioned gamefish like smallmouth and other species including herring. Nowhere does it prohibit the use of goldfish as a bait in any RIGL, code, or published regulation, and under those two premises the Black Salty was imported with the proper minnow license.
There is a new board called the RI Bio Security Council, made up of 7 members of the state connected to wildlife and its management, in conjunction with the CRMC. It is they who will determine its status now, after the 9 months of importation already past, to be sure it poses no threats to RI watersheds and the inhabitants of them.
Most of you would be interested to know that CA, the state with the strictest environmental regulations in the nation, has permitted this fish to be imported into their state, and has prohibited it's use in their freshwater impoundments and rivers. Goldfish currently reside in all states except Alaska, and have for over 400 years been imported into this country. It is not an Asian carp, or any other cyprinid deemed detrimental and invasive. Long term(50 plus year) studies have been made on the Carrasius auratus, or goldfish, and their effects on other native species, with no reported problems as to invading any bodies of water and displacing or disrupting native inhabitants. The USDA and USGS have both certified that this fish has not been genetically manipulated or altered or modified in any way, by the definition used internationally by the Codex Alimentarious commission, and it has been certified that this fish has been reared in a purely conventional, time tested and approved manner.
The fact remains that permits were given, and much time, effort and money was spent insuring that this was done legally and effectively. Now that DEM has stalled the projects, the minnow farm and distributors here in RI are suffering an unfair burden, as are those who intend to use them as baits. All efforts were done in accordance and with direction from RI DEM, so any delays or stalling are not by any caused by associated interests in this baitfish.
These fish reside in every petshop in the state, as well as many private ponds and homes. If the Bio Security Council decides this fish is a bio hazard or invasive species, get ready for some major fallout in many other sectors besides the fishing realm. Can you imagine telling a child that their pet goldfish has to be taken from them? Or the petshops reaction to no more feeder fish or ornamental goldfish being allowed? This has farther reaching ramifications that I'm not sure are being considered.
I'm all for precautions, but this is absurd. These fish have been legal in this state for many, many years, and to now meet as to the species acceptability as an imported creature is just insane after all this time. There are volumes of studies on the permissibility of goldfish as bait, and no legal rulings which can be cited to currently not allow them into the state or their use as a baitfish, not to mention the very real stress this could take off the herring, menhaden, and American eel.

[CaptDom]

The DEM officially released an emergency measure banning all goldfish, including the Black Salty from FRESHWATER use. They went on to okay our permit to import, and thus allowing the Black Salty to be shipped into RI for saltwater use as a bait. I was surprised how quickly this got resolved considering what I heard it could take. The fact that a high ranking State Police official used some before the ban might have helped.

Sam's Bait and Tackle, Wildwood Outfitters, Ocean State Tackle(both), Riverside, and Lucky's will have them, and Snug Harbor will have the striper size, as well as the fluke size, all shops will have them by Friday afternoon, just in time for the holiday weekend. Anyone interested in further info please PM me.
As a side note, I had bass up to 33 pounds today up the bay, they were under massive schools of adult pogies!! Get ready for the big girls!!!

[Skitterpop]

Who needs the black goldfish. If you can`t catch fish without bait you might as well take up golf.

IMO they are a waste of money and energy handling them.


Now bellbottoms....that was a worthwhile craze


oh yeah........ SPAM SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JohnR]

Capt Dom - are you in any way affiliated with Black Salties or those shops?

Thanks,

John

[Swimmer]

Mucho bandwidth on the Black Mariah er I mean Salties

[DZ]

Just heard a news release on WADK 1540 Radio(Newport) - DEM has imposed an emergency 120 day ban on using any goldfish for bait in RI. They will use the 120 days to study the issue. Doesn't look good.

DZ

[Redsoxticket]

Black salty's live expectancy is a few hours in salt water.
CA & FL make it illegal to use the saltys in fresh water.
It is possible that if the saltys survive in fresh water such as a herring pond/stream and with no predators, they could possibly find the herring's eggs there source of food.

[CaptDom]

I am sorry to those of you on this fine board that thought I was spamming your site up, as it was not my intention. I was unfamiliar with MO here, as I don't really find any easily accessible place on the site on rules and regulations here in regards to posts. I was previously unaware that my posts were taboo. The two threads I chimed on were not started by me either time, I simply felt it necessary to retort to some serious misinformation being brought up and as a result did my thing. It unfortunately degenerated both times to name calling and rants/raves which I tried to avoid at all costs, and only identified myself as the distributor after being called out by another member. I felt it necessary to be truthful and forthcoming, and in no way did I try to use this as a marketing medium; I will refrain from posting anything further on any affiliations I may have. I am in no way connected to any of the baitshops mentioned earlier, I was simply replying to Moses' last post asking to be updated, and am simply a wholesale guy in regards to the aforementioned baits, I do not sell to any of you, the end users.

If I may add one last opinion, I find it sort of exclusionary in more ways than one that representatives of fishing related products are not allowed to chime in to add their views and opinions or facts when their products are brought up by other members of the site, especially when they are attacked or put in a negative spin. If I were a sponsor giving money to your site it would be different, which seems ironic to me as you allow ads and posts by them but not well intentioned posts by non sponsors. As a side note I sent PM message to John R asking what the rules were to posting as a captain/fishing business(the very first day I joined), and was never informed or replied to, sort of in my defense.

Again, I in no way meant to offend anyone or cause problems, and hope that my opinions and views are appreciated for their honesty and good intentions, or if not at the very least tolerated on this open, free, and public fishing-chat site.

[milo]

I dont think that the capt was spamming also,he obviously is the most informed on these,and in no way was pushing it until called out..You guys want info and in the end say he"s spammin' ...WTF you want to use em ,go ahead .. if you dont , then dont ,but dont give the guy %$%$%$%$ for stating the facts then chop him at the knees ...fire away

[JohnR]

I'm firing Milo


Cap Dom -

Item 1: Your affiliation with Black Salties should have been mentioned at the outset. These have potential and the discussion would have been well supported had you mentioned that you have a financial interest in this product. The way you did handle this was spam, borderline, informative, and reasonable discussion, but still mild spam. You could have asked and added to the conversation properly by disclosing that you are involved with the B.S.

Item 2:

I was unfamiliar with MO here, as I don't really find any easily accessible place on the site on rules and regulations here in regards to posts. I was previously unaware that my posts were taboo.

Remember that little blurb when you registered to the site that states: Commercial Advertising without written permission from Striped-Bass.com is Strictly Prohibited, this includes self promotion and promotion of external entities. This is locally considered "SPAM" and is prohibited at Striped-Bass.com. FURTHER, the registering of accounts, mannualy and automated, to solicit services on this forum is expressly forbidden and will be reported - You clicked on the part where it asked you to read the rules and agree.

Item 3:

As a side note I sent PM message to John R asking what the rules were to posting as a captain/fishing business(the very first day I joined), and was never informed or replied to, sort of in my defense.

You joined on S-B Feb 21, 2006 at 10:45 pm. I will cleary state that you did NOT send me a PM on the "very first day". You sent one at 6:30 last night in reply to my request, if you were affiliated with B.S.

Item 4:

If I may add one last opinion, I find it sort of exclusionary in more ways than one that representatives of fishing related products are not allowed to chime in to add their views and opinions or facts when their products are brought up by other members of the site, especially when they are attacked or put in a negative spin. If I were a sponsor giving money to your site it would be different, which seems ironic to me as you allow ads and posts by them but not well intentioned posts by non sponsors.

We DO allow and encourage this discourse by "knowlegeable" people regarding a product but they should introduce themselves AND their affiliation should be clearly stated from the beginning. Your posts were spamish of the B.S. but they were also somewhat informative.

Item 5:

and am simply a wholesale guy in regards to the aforementioned baits, I do not sell to any of you, the end users.

As being the "wholesale guy", you have much to profit from through advancing the PR of the B.S.

Item 6:

It unfortunately degenerated both times to name calling and rants/raves which I tried to avoid at all costs, and only identified myself as the distributor after being called out by another member.

Yet, you were happy enough to degenerate into railing against DEM when they were squashing YOUR agenda

Item 7:

Again, I in no way meant to offend anyone or cause problems, and hope that my opinions and views are appreciated for their honesty and good intentions, or if not at the very least tolerated on this open, free, and public fishing-chat site.

The open and free and lights kept on by sponsors where the registration agreement states no commercial advertising of any kind without permission first public fishing chat-site

Oakie knows you and if he vouches for you that is a pretty stinkin' good reference in my opinion. HOWEVER, you did not disclose your affiliation, and your agenda, plus you have made a few inaccurate statements here. Please be more honest and open in the future (and read the rules).

Thanks,

John

[RIROCKHOUND]

Skitterpop...
I dont think Dom is selling these or anything... he just wants to use them. Chunks can be good but live is always better....

[UserRemoved1]

http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...ad.php?t=31510

There can only be ONE black salty

[Parker650]

Real quick...for all that are upset or don't understand why DEM is cracking down on these goldfish...

OK...they don't breed, thats good...they don't survive long in saltwater, good...possibly quite a while in freshwater, not so good...they work and will take pressure off other bait being sold if they are allowed, that is good too. Most everything that CaptDom and most others in favor have brought up they have a lot going for them. That I agree with...it's only one thing that is a significant unknown.

The one thing that stands out is there is no concrete, time-proven scientific information on these fish and what kind of effects they could possibly have IF RELEASED INTO A FRESHWATER ECOSYSTEM. They don't breed, so most everyone would automatically think that it is OK if they get released. Just keep in mind that any fish introduced into an ecosystem (lake, stream, brook) will be taking up space and food to live, possibly out-competing other native-fish for food, eating native-fish eggs, larvae and/or young frye and quite possibly pushing native fish out of their habitat and breeding areas. Of course, all of this might not happen, however there is a possibility, as we have seen what happens with other non-native species that have been accidentally introduced into other areas. Since there is a remote possibility that something like this COULD happen (not saying it will), coupled with the lack of scientific information on these goldfish, DEM (as well as ourselves as responsible fishermen and stewards of this earth) needs to take every precaution BEFORE it happens. There is nothing wrong with being overly cautious, we just need to have patience and understand the potential impacts they could have and why more info is needed before they are given the OK.

What if...some got released into the wood river and they ended up pushing the trout out of their breeding areas and eating the eggs and larvae and the trout population plummets. What if you grew up trout fishing, looking forward to taking your son out on opening day for trout as you used to, only to catch 5 lb 'goldfish' instead? Not saying it WOULD happen, but until we know otherwise, it COULD, and we need to be responsible with these possibilities.

[Skitterpop]

Ok so they don`t reproduce...ever see what released goldfish do to freshwater ponds / lakes?


Black Salty Koi Ponds on a grand scale.

[Jenn]

Originally Posted by Parker650

Real quick...for all that are upset or don't understand why DEM is cracking down on these goldfish...

OK...they don't breed, thats good...they don't survive long in saltwater, good...possibly quite a while in freshwater, not so good...they work and will take pressure off other bait being sold if they are allowed, that is good too. Most everything that CaptDom and most others in favor have brought up they have a lot going for them. That I agree with...it's only one thing that is a significant unknown.

The one thing that stands out is there is no concrete, time-proven scientific information on these fish and what kind of effects they could possibly have IF RELEASED INTO A FRESHWATER ECOSYSTEM. They don't breed, so most everyone would automatically think that it is OK if they get released. Just keep in mind that any fish introduced into an ecosystem (lake, stream, brook) will be taking up space and food to live, possibly out-competing other native-fish for food, eating native-fish eggs, larvae and/or young frye and quite possibly pushing native fish out of their habitat and breeding areas. Of course, all of this might not happen, however there is a possibility, as we have seen what happens with other non-native species that have been accidentally introduced into other areas. Since there is a remote possibility that something like this COULD happen (not saying it will), coupled with the lack of scientific information on these goldfish, DEM (as well as ourselves as responsible fishermen and stewards of this earth) needs to take every precaution BEFORE it happens. There is nothing wrong with being overly cautious, we just need to have patience and understand the potential impacts they could have and why more info is needed before they are given the OK.

What if...some got released into the wood river and they ended up pushing the trout out of their breeding areas and eating the eggs and larvae and the trout population plummets. What if you grew up trout fishing, looking forward to taking your son out on opening day for trout as you used to, only to catch 5 lb 'goldfish' instead? Not saying it WOULD happen, but until we know otherwise, it COULD, and we need to be responsible with these possibilities.

the most intelligent response I have heard yet.

Also I have a question.....how do they "not breed"? Please excuse me for sounding stupid on this but I dont get it???? are they cloned??? how can they "not breed"? What am I missing?

[Skitterpop]

Carp, such as grass, black, and silver, as well as goldfish are among the most destructive non-indigenous species in North America, primarily because of their diet of aquatic vegetation. These species strip waters of oxygen-producing plants, thus increasing water temperatures and destroying habitat for native juvenile fish. In addition, the feeding habits of carp and goldfish stir up sediments, which decreases water clarity and inhibits plant growth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess my question to the BS people would be how long will they live in fresh water?

[Nebe]

skitter- they cant reproduce. historicly problems involved with introducing a non-natice species into a new inviroment is that there are no preditors to eat them, which allows them to reproduce, which in turn boosts the #'s and the native species get pushed out- Didnt you see the movie Gremlins?? My point is that if they cant reproduce, they will live their lifespan and die.

Im all for these little fish- they are farm raised, unlike eels which are stripped from ponds, rivers, and estuaries up and down our coasts.

[Skitterpop]

I already had that Eben....that is why I said how long do they live.If repeatedly used at any location this will still be a problem.Not all will perish with use. Have you seen a fresh water environment over run with goldfish? It gets trashed.

And....remember Jurassic Park ...they cannot reproduce

[RIROCKHOUND]

Skitter;
you're very anti Salty's...If the studies show in saltwater they are OK, and are available for sale, is it safe to say you'll never try them or use them, ever?

[Skitterpop]

Yes

[RIROCKHOUND]

OK... Well your principles can be admired then, but I think they'll at least be worth a try in salt water

[Moses]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

OK... Well your principles can be admired then, but I think they'll at least be worth a try in salt water

I agree. If I could purchase these legally and use them legally in saltwater only, I definitely would.