No lockdown, no masks, nNo hysteria... NO PROBLEM: Sweden didn't go into a lockdown a

[detbuch]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...cid=uxbndlbing

[Ian]

Your point?
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Ian

Your point?
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Sandbrook's sub-title of the article is " Is this proof we got it all terribly wrong?" Those who wanted to open up the economy were criticized as anti-science or protecting what was left of the "Trump economy." Those who insisted that we must follow the science were positive that the science demanded a lockdown, and still does to a great degree.

Sweden did not destroy its economy, life and living is fairly normal there, and the virus has basically been relegated to a sort of flu while the rest of the world that had draconian and extended lockdowns have shattered economies, and are looking for more lockdowns as the virus surges.

Did we get it wrong? And has our version of "the science" been flawed? And should we be opening up more and locking down, or threatening to, less?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Ian

Your point?
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The point is that covid is a democratic plot to rig the election.

I’d note though that Sweden has a higher covid mortality rate than the US.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

The point is that covid is a democratic plot to rig the election.

I’d note though that Sweden has a higher covid mortality rate than the US.
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yet much lower than our states run by democrat governors...

btw...US deaths/million pop 547

Sweden deaths/million pop 575

[Nebe]

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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how you get here for there is amazing...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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if the goal is always to eliminate deaths, we’d eliminate the automobile. think how many lives that would save. but we don’t do that. there’s a reason why.

is sweden conservative? is that what you’re suggesting?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

how you get here for there is amazing...

lack of thought is how you get there.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

if the goal is always to eliminate deaths, we’d eliminate the automobile. think how many lives that would save. but we don’t do that. there’s a reason why.

is sweden conservative? is that what you’re suggesting?
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and there is a difference from getting killed in an auto vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

you can catch a lotta stuff at Walmart....

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No problem? No problem??? How many people died per million ??

I guess deaths related to this are acceptable to conservatives.
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They are a recent poll I posted was over 54% found the deaths from covid as acceptable..

HeLL you can go back to the beginnings of this and find post decrying Obama's deaths for the bird flu. When covid deaths were low. ... as Jim he was was all over that nonsense , no he is changing gears

Pointing out deaths or crime in dem controlled cities is the new mantra. Because crime happens no place else , and definently not were Republicans are in charge


.1 Alaska • Violent crime rate: 885 per 100,000 people 2 . New Mexico

• Violent crime rate: 856.6 per 100,000 people 3 . Tennessee

• Violent crime rate: 623.7 per 100,000 people 4th . Arkansas

• Violent crime rate: 543.6 per 100,000 people and 5th Nevada

• Violent crime rate: 541.1 per 100,000 people

And murder top 5 per 100,000. Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri and Alaska
Damn pesky facts



All this chaos has come under Trump whom they hold responsible for nothing

But it was Obama's fault that police were killed

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

They are a recent poll I posted was over 54% found the deaths from covid as acceptable..

HeLL you can go back to the beginnings of this and find post decrying Obama's deaths for the bird flu. When covid deaths were low. ... as Jim he was was all over that nonsense , no he is changing gears

Pointing out deaths or crime in dem controlled cities is the new mantra. Because crime happens no place else , and definently not were Republicans are in charge


.1 Alaska • Violent crime rate: 885 per 100,000 people 2 . New Mexico

• Violent crime rate: 856.6 per 100,000 people 3 . Tennessee

• Violent crime rate: 623.7 per 100,000 people 4th . Arkansas

• Violent crime rate: 543.6 per 100,000 people and 5th Nevada

• Violent crime rate: 541.1 per 100,000 people

And murder top 5 per 100,000. Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri and Alaska
Damn pesky facts



All this chaos has come under Trump whom the hold responsible for nothing

But it was Obama's fault that police were killed

But they will ingnore the benfits

is there a point here?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The point is that covid is a democratic plot to rig the election.

I’d note though that Sweden has a higher covid mortality rate than the US.
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Did you note this from the article: "According to Sebastian Rushworth, an American-born doctor in a Stockholm A&E department, he hasn’t seen a single Covid-19 patient in a month: ‘Basically,’ he writes, ‘Covid is in all practical senses over and done with in Sweden.’ "

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

and there is a difference from getting killed in an auto vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

auto deaths can be eliminated. but we don’t do it. we accept tens of thousands of deaths a year on the roads, as a cost of having a quality of life. true or false?
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Did you note this from the article: "According to Sebastian Rushworth, an American-born doctor in a Stockholm A&E department, he hasn’t seen a single Covid-19 patient in a month: ‘Basically,’ he writes, ‘Covid is in all practical senses over and done with in Sweden.’ "

And many doctors could say the same in Vermont, just think of it like Tweety does of absentee ballots.
Except in Florida, of course
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

you can catch a lotta stuff at Walmart....

Teen pregnancy is at epidemic proportions there.

Don’t drink the water
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

auto deaths can be eliminated. but we don’t do it. we accept tens of thousands of deaths a year on the roads, as a cost of having a quality of life. true or false?
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We do, but there are rules in place to try to limit the deaths - something many states did not do. And if a city tried to limit the deaths by imposing restrictions the Repub. govern. all tried to prevent them bc I guess they don't like local control - hypocrites.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

And many doctors could say the same in Vermont,

We don't know that Vermont's lockdown was necessary. We do know that Sweden didn't lock down and got the "same" result you noted as Vermont.

And Vermont didn't need some "national plan" other than what the Federal government already did. It's called federalism. Separation of powers. Limited central government. States having far more power to shape their destiny than you seem to care for.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

is there a point here?

Now playing dumb

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

We don't know that Vermont's lockdown was necessary. We do know that Sweden didn't lock down and got the "same" result you noted as Vermont.

That's not what he said and not what occurred.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Now playing dumb

nope...it was an honest question

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

We do, but there are rules in place to try to limit the deaths - something many states did not do. And if a city tried to limit the deaths by imposing restrictions the Repub. govern. all tried to prevent them bc I guess they don't like local control - hypocrites.

you are desperately trying to split hairs. there are rules, but they are very very non invasive. you’re going to compare speed limits, with the spring shutdown? similarly invasive?

Anything at all, to avoid saying “you make a good point.”

speed limits and no school, are equally intrusive according to you.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you are desperately trying to split hairs. there are rules, but they are very very non invasive. you’re going to compare speed limits, with the spring shutdown? similarly invasive?

Anything at all, to avoid saying “you make a good point.”

speed limits and no school, are equally intrusive according to you.
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How about wearing a mask?

And the states that had shutdowns and slowly opened were decreasing until the virus started to come back from the other states. You're the one brought up driving a car (which we use to take my dad to his Drs. appts). my wearing a mask is pretty noninvasive.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

We don't know that Vermont's lockdown was necessary. We do know that Sweden didn't lock down and got the "same" result you noted as Vermont.

And Vermont didn't need some "national plan" other than what the Federal government already did. It's called federalism. Separation of powers. Limited central government. States having far more power to shape their destiny than you seem to care for.

As usual you confuse power with leadership.
Just like the weak leader who had to gas people to go make a political statement and demonstrate his power.

All is not perfect in Sweden, though I’m surprised that your example of good behavior is a country with national healthcare, a generous safety net to support those who fell ill and guaranteed income. Perhaps that influenced their people to do the voluntary isolation.

Swedish’s top epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, said in an interview with Swedish Radio that the country made some mistakes. “If we were to encounter the same illness with the same knowledge that we have today, I think our response would land somewhere in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” he said.
In any case, the most instructive phase of Sweden’s approach may lie ahead: “It will be interesting to find out whether they can respond now, or whether they’re going to keep going with a strategy that seems like it’s not working,” says Schneider.
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[Got Stripers]

Trump continues to believe he knows best medically, so it’s an emergency order to approve without the usual testing for plasma treatments, which most experts agree “may” help some. He is also it appears going to take the same approach on vaccines, so I suggest the entire GOP get in line to get those injections, so they can show us all that rely on science and proven methods to vet a vaccine what the side affects might be.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

As usual you confuse power with leadership.
Just like the weak leader who had to gas people to go make a political statement and demonstrate his power.

I have no idea of what you're talking about. I wasn't referring to either power or leadership.

All is not perfect in Sweden, though I’m surprised that your example of good behavior is a country with national healthcare, a generous safety net to support those who fell ill and guaranteed income. Perhaps that influenced their people to do the voluntary isolation.

Who said it was perfect? Is perfection your measure of success? I don't know what influenced the people. I just posted an article that showed an example of a country handling the virus without a lockdown.

Since you want to slip in other issues than I presented with the article . . . as well as national health care and generous safety net, Sweden is a thriving capitalist country very friendly to business with a corporate tax rate of just over 21% and scheduled to decrease one percent next year.

And its income tax rate is flatter than ours. "Sweden has a large, broad, and flat tax base . . . Sweden takes a bigger slug out of your income and imposes top tax rates at a much lower income than the United States does, and imposes a high value added tax on consumption."

As the Tax Foundation says:

"Scandinavian countries provide a broader scope of public services—such as universal healthcare and higher education—than the United States. However, such programs necessitate higher levels of taxation, which is reflected in Scandinavia’s relatively high tax-to-GDP ratios. Adopting such public services in the United States would naturally require higher levels of taxation. If the U.S. were to raise taxes in a way that mirrors Scandinavian countries, taxes—especially on the middle class—would increase through a new VAT and higher social security contributions and personal income taxes. Business and capital taxes would not necessarily need to be increased if policymakers were following the Scandinavian model. In fact, the corporate income tax rate would decline."

"It is important to note that the Swedish tax system is much more regressive than America’s. To impose policies that “closely resemble” those of Sweden, [we] would have to significantly increase taxes on the middle class, not by purely on raising taxes on the very rich. In essence, under the Swedish system, citizens prepay for health and social services. This is very different from the “free” model of health and social services that AOC and her colleagues’ rhetoric implies."

Swedish’s top epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, said in an interview with Swedish Radio that the country made some mistakes. “If we were to encounter the same illness with the same knowledge that we have today, I think our response would land somewhere in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” he said.

Somewhere in the middle would be far less draconian that the lockdowns most countries have imposed.

In any case, the most instructive phase of Sweden’s approach may lie ahead: “It will be interesting to find out whether they can respond now, or whether they’re going to keep going with a strategy that seems like it’s not working,” says Schneider.

I don't know who Schneider is, but the author of the article I posted believes the Swedish strategy is working very well.

[Ian]

Look at the # of people who have gotten Covid in Sweden. Then look at the # in California.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Ian

Look at the # of people who have gotten Covid in Sweden. Then look at the # in California.
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Your point?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I don't know who Schneider is, but the author of the article I posted believes the Swedish strategy is working very well.

He's not a college history professor and TV personality like Sandbrook
You need to learn that simple anecdotal evidence proves nothing but sounds great when it seems to validate your point.

As far as your claim that VT and Sweden had the same results
Sweden's infection and death rate is far greater than Vermont's
Vermont population is 625K with 1572 infections and 58 deaths
Sweden population is 10.5M with 158K infections and 2600 deaths

Just remember that everyone who comes near Tweety gets tested, but it's nothing to worry about.