Mass. weighs tougher protections for striped bass

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

This is extremely legit. The bill has been sponsored for over a year and you are hearing about it now because it made it to committee. Once the committee decides it is worthy of a vote in the house it will be in fact a bill.

Yes, certainly aware of the effort having been made and certainly aware that it was going in - this was the first I saw of it coming out.

Originally Posted by Jackbass

The commercial striped bass industry in Massachusetts is second in take only to Maryland. Eliminating the commercial market in MA and reducing the Rec take to one fish a day goes a long way in conserving the striped Bass. I am surprised this is news to everyone.

The commercial bass industry in Mass may take second to Maryland but the rec take up and down the coats is tremendous and way overshadows the commercial take. IMO, we need to focus more to reduce the size taken out of the pie to protect the fish, than to decide who's piece is how big.

We really should be having these groups working on what the pie eats. Anything that just reallocates to another usergroup (or state) is really politics and not in the interest of the fish.

I don't commercial fish, I have not, I don't now, and unless there is a massive overpopulation in the future (yeh right) I probably won't then. I do release 99% of what I catch.

Originally Posted by Jackbass

Stripers Forever is hardly an Elitist group. It is a group that is run by volunteers has and spends every dime it receives to conserve and protect the Striped Bass. To think the members of Stripers Forever are a bunch of Orvis Casting Land Rover Driving elitists is simply ignorant.

I don't fall in line behind SF because I don't think it is the right fight, Rovers, Orvis, or not - and I don't think I have ever said that and if I have - not in a long time, while sober, or being even remotely serious about fisheries management.

Originally Posted by CowHunter

And you have absolutley not a CLUE as to what the Rec take is state to state, NO CLUE whatsoever. Just blame it on the Mass com's....

Nope people don't know, and that poorly pushed through fed license is probably going to help refine those numbers. but who is this directed to??

Originally Posted by Canalman

Wow, First I've heard of this. It's about time!

He lives

Originally Posted by Canalman

John, that does proect the fish you're suggesting we protect

Somewhat. It would be nice to be able to go and protect specific year classes or even define based on guestimate of male to female, and 50 other factors, but there is enough problems getting people to know who much they can legal take when it is one or two fish. A slot would be harder (and worth it IMO). A variable slot could be better in fantasy land but it would never work.

Originally Posted by Canalman

Biggest problem I see with the commercial fishery is that the guys who are good are trained assassins. They can hover over a body of big fish and do some real damage. Bodies of fish are vulnerable to being wiped out if the fleet anchors up over their heads. If these guys take their 30 fish from a pod of 100, that's a third of a migrating or resident pod of fish that has likely been programmed (genetically) to run a certain route, breed a certain river. Take a third away--that's bad enough--but what about when the other 15 boats within binocular range come motoring over to drop their yo-yo's how many are left then?

I've seen some great hauls come into the commercial place near my house---seen many 50's and a 64 there. But they don't hold a candle to the thousands of 30's I've seen stiff and covered with crushed ice. It really does need to stop.

We should not support the Striper Cup either though... that list of pin winner is like Schindlers List for striped bass

A high percentage of the commercial guys DO NOT NEED TO BE FISHING TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES ANYWAY. It's a double-paid vacation for them.

If we are to keep the commercial fishery alive, you should have to prove that commercial fishing makes up more that 50% of your yearly income.

-Dave

Agree 70%

Originally Posted by Back Beach

It does, provided there's enough fish passing through the slot size, which depends on what was born in previous years. If you get a large year class of fish born it makes sense to me the managers would have to anticipate the age/length and implement the slot accordingly for it to provide any real benefit.

If a 28"-40" slot gets implemented but the fish are all either too big/too small its a wasted effort. The slot also has to coincide with good year classes of fish in order to provide the highest yield of protected breeders.

Originally Posted by Canalman

Righth there with ya. Look at the year classes though, this would protect the 2001 class which was the biggest ever recorded.

-Dave

2001 - was the biggest this decade and in top 3 overall. And purely anecdotal, the first major spawn of the 93 year class. Have anything to do with it? Dunno. Not in fisheries management. Then next year sucked but IIRC that was a bad drought year or flood year screwing up the spawn.

[big jay]

I think Cowhunter is a guy I could drink a beer with.

[Jackbass]

Cowman you are 100 percent correct no one has any iota of a clue what the Rec take is at this point in time. The Rec Catch that is reported is total catch including fish that are released to fight another day.

The new regs will only allow one fish to be taken per day. Which will further limit the recreational catch.

The MA comm season is in no way tightly regulated. The catch is under reported there is always fish being sold under the radar. Why is it that a large portion of commercial tags go unfilled every year? Do these people not use their license? The Registration is a joke.

[CowHunter]

Canalman, you think all the fish are caught commercially yo-yo'ng??? You are way off, I didnt see a single person yo-yoing in mass. whatever the comms catch thats legal goes in the boat and they are done as soon as the limit is hit. I did see alot of fish killed by the snag and drop down here in NJ / NY. They think they are doing good gut hooking and then releasing bleeding fish. Theres always plenty floating belly up. As sandman stated seeing 60 boats at Gayhead, I laugh at that beause you guys dont know how good you have it. There is no way everyone of them is coming in with limits... Less than 10 percent are. Most of those guys are camped out all day for a handfull of fish or they are guys scupping. If it were that easy everyone would do it. Mass is a HUGE state with alot of shoreline, theres many miles of ocean where 1 million LBS comes from. Recs kill WAY More fish. My problem is who is counting those fish. Nobody ever counted a single fish caught recreationally of mine nor did I have to report it, even chartering in NJ, Thats thousands of pounds a season and Im one guy, how about the thousands of other people? Guys should go fish off Rudy VA Dec - March, its like Gay head x 500 boats, 8-12 men a boat, 1-2 trips a day over the entire BIOMASS. That will be a thing of the past soon. I mentioned the license fees because if the comms dont pay there gonna miss the $$, theyll be raising the rec license fees substantially Im sure. started out at $10 and are up 5-6 times more in a year. Easiest money the government ever got! Lets keep raising for Obamanation!

[CowHunter]

JackBass, the Mass comm season is around 20 days! All you want to do is take the comm catch and give it to the rec guys who are complaining because there are less fish to catch. Might as well make it a catch and release fishery period then??
Mass reporting system is a joke? Let me tell you it is WAY better than what any state has. I get checked there more times in a week than I did in all the other states I fish combined in all my years! At least there is a reporting system. You will never have a rec reporting system, ever. You have absolutely no idea the damage done elsewhere by "rec" guys. More fish are sold black market here in NJ or NY than the entire Mass commercial season. Id bet anything on it!

[Brian L]

Originally Posted by Canalman

A high percentage of the commercial guys DO NOT NEED TO BE FISHING TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES ANYWAY. It's a double-paid vacation for them.

If we are to keep the commercial fishery alive, you should have to prove that commercial fishing makes up more that 50% of your yearly income.

I couldn't disagree more.

I fish comm in RI and pull an average 3-6K(since 2000) a year between bass, fluke, seabass, scup, blues, etc.. Provides pocket money for me all year that doesn't come out of my paycheck(which pays mortgage, bills, etc..) Probably couldn't afford to fish or do many other things with my family without the extra money I make fishing.

Every comm guy I know makes money some other way than fishing as well. If we're going to start banning people who don't make 50% of their living from one trade, why wouldn't we also bar comm fishermen from participating in any other trade in order to supplement income? There's very few guys making a living on fishing only. So to be fair, no carpentry, plumbing, landscaping, etc.. unless it's 50% or more of their income. That's a tremendously slippery slope to go down. People should be able to diversify their income sources as long as they have adequate skills to do so.

Double paid vacation? So what? What's wrong with making money doing something you love?

[MAKAI]

When you absolutely want the worse outcome of a situation.
Use completely diametrical points of view.
We are all screwed.
Really is a question of do we want to catch fish and/or keep fish and trust magic to replace them.
I have an easier time discussing string theory and quantum physics with Sweetwater.

[sokinwet]

Ya I know...all the fisheries managers are liars or in someones pocket, comm guys are poaching crooks,......lets let stripers forever and a bunch of pol's decide what's best.

[numbskull]

Seems to me if we just nuke NJ there will be enough fish for everyone else.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

When you absolutely want the worse outcome of a situation.
Use completely diametrical points of view.
We are all screwed.
Really is a question of do we want to catch fish and/or keep fish and trust magic to replace them.
I have an easier time discussing string theory and quantum physics with Sweetwater.

That's only because by the time string theory pops up, you're into the second bottle of Macallan and everything someone makes sense.

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

That's only because by the time string theory pops up, you're into the second bottle of Macallan and everything someone makes sense.

By the time we are waxing poetic about the universe, and the fate of man. You young ones are all tucked in. By the way scotch taste better when in deep discourse, fine cigar smoke swirling amid the stars.

[UserRemoved1]

Smoking is bad for you


Big Jay I'd buy the first round.

[MAKAI]

[QUOTE=#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&;728248]Smoking is bad for you


So are women I like, but I do it anyway.
Their collective nattering babble always in my ears like tinnitus.

[CowHunter]

Striped Bass - Status of Fishery Resources off the Northeastern US

[MAKAI]

I'm just curious,

How is the data derived for recreationally killed fish ?

No one I know has ever been asked what there take is.

So is it just an " educated " guess ?

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

I'm just curious,

How is the data derived for recreationally killed fish ?

No one I know has ever been asked what there take is.

So is it just an " educated " guess ?

IIRC they may send someone out with a notepad to ask you to volunteer for a survey as some fish location. I was once asked to do a survey 10 something years ago at the docks in Galilee the one time I went Cod fishing from there.
They also randomly call people to see if the fish, and then how so, and then get in to detail and hope you don't lie.

One of the goals of the "Federal License / Registry" is to generate significant lists to do the surveys.

[numbskull]

Most of the recreational "take" is actually from catch and release calculations. Very sketchy at best. I think they use an 8 % number, but this is very water temp and hook location dependent (bait and J hooks is the worst).

A large percentage of the recreational take is also due to charter boats. Obviously these guys have better success than most amateurs, they also are far more likely to get surveyed by dockside monitors (since the charter guys are out everyday). I don't know for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me if the recreational catch rate is skewed based on over sampling of charter boats and using their success rate per hour fished as a guide to what others do.
I do know that for the harbors I am familiar with, the charter and commercial fishery accounts for a MUCH larger percentage of the fish landed than the rest of us recreational schmucks.

These fish population estimates also bother me. The numbers themselves are very soft (the head biologists admit the margin of error may be 50%). Yes, I know people claim there are plenty of fish, just that they are all offshore. To which I would say, "So what?". The ONLY population that matters to most fisherman are the fish they can access. THAT population is in dire straits, and long past the point where more protection is warranted.

For those of us in our 50's, what we have now is going to be the large fish we hope to target in the final 15-20 years of our fishing lives. That prospect is not very encouraging. I don't, therefore, care who feels they are being cheated......I want these fish protected and I don't care one bit if it takes the legislature to do it.

[MAKAI]

So in the real world. The rec numbers are pure fantasy.
I believe the far greater good is to make it a gamefish nation wide.
Say one a day at 40 inches.
The plusses outweigh the negatives.
The status quo is a joke, we can't be this stupid. . . . I take that back we can.

[Doublerunner]

This will be my 20th post on this site. And since the quantity of your posts seem to be more important to some than the quality I will keep this short.

I believe giving "game fish" status to stripers will help the stock

I also believe a bigger issue is the dragging for menhaden. Take away the bait and the stripers go away as well. In addition to the taking of the bait the draggers also turn the ocean bottom into a barren desert. Depleting it of all plant and marine life

So "game fish" status is a start. There is still more to do

[intrepid24]

Originally Posted by Jackbass

Cowman you are 100 percent correct no one has any iota of a clue what the Rec take is at this point in time. The Rec Catch that is reported is total catch including fish that are released to fight another day.

The new regs will only allow one fish to be taken per day. Which will further limit the recreational catch.

The MA comm season is in no way tightly regulated. The catch is under reported there is always fish being sold under the radar. Why is it that a large portion of commercial tags go unfilled every year? Do these people not use their license? The Registration is a joke.

I want to know why people equate com fishing w/ fish sold under the radar.....I AM SICK OF THAT %$%$%$%$ TALK !! LETS TALK ABOUT CHARTER GUYS SELLING THEIR CATCH OUT OF STATE, DAY AFTER DAY.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Doublerunner

I also believe a bigger issue is the dragging for menhaden. Take away the bait and the stripers go away as well. In addition to the taking of the bait the draggers also turn the ocean bottom into a barren desert. Depleting it of all plant and marine life

Amen

Fix the forage. Dial back the overall keep. Poaching, while really weak and despicable, is not what puts the stock in trouble.

[CowHunter]

Nobody ever asked me for a catch report in Mass or NJ, nor ANYBODY else I know. The Rec catch is MUCH Higher. You know the Comm catch probably within 10% = / -. Mass is 10 Percent of comm catch coast wide. Stick with stripersforever, let em take away the com catch and give it to VA / MD / NC, no pin hookin there boys, gill netting or haul siegning much more fun. Nobody gives a rats ass about the comm guy in LI thats been breaking every law and making his own comm catch! Beat every case, give the quata to him.Either way, they shut mass down dont make a difference. My clients want dead fish! Im gonn kill the same 25-30k lbs or so Every season up and down the coast from April to January. Get range rover driving shmucks to make the rules, I know, change it to 20 inch cause then they can catch too with rhir fly rods. Regs stay the way they are they will never catch... Next Tuna4ever, Tog4ever, Fluke4ever, make em' all gamefish! Ban all commercial! Bunch of clowns writing 100 letters that spend 2 days on the water a season, inherited dadys money and have nothging better to do! Dont know what it is to work 4 a living, go pay 1K for an orvis guy to put em on fish!

[CowHunter]

Intrepid24, Well You should know by now, Everything is blamed on commercials!!!

[Doublerunner]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Nobody ever asked me for a catch report in Mass or NJ, nor ANYBODY else I know. The Rec catch is MUCH Higher. You know the Comm catch probably within 10% = / -. Mass is 10 Percent of comm catch coast wide. Stick with stripersforever, let em take away the com catch and give it to VA / MD / NC, no pin hookin there boys, gill netting or haul siegning much more fun. Nobody gives a rats ass about the comm guy in LI thats been breaking every law and making his own comm catch! Beat every case, give the quata to him.Either way, they shut mass down dont make a difference. My clients want dead fish! Im gonn kill the same 25-30k lbs or so Every season up and down the coast from April to January. Get range rover driving shmucks to make the rules, I know, change it to 20 inch cause then they can catch too with rhir fly rods. Regs stay the way they are they will never catch... Next Tuna4ever, Tog4ever, Fluke4ever, make em' all gamefish! Ban all commercial! Bunch of clowns writing 100 letters that spend 2 days on the water a season, inherited dadys money and have nothging better to do! Dont know what it is to work 4 a living, go pay 1K for an orvis guy to put em on fish!

I take offense to your post. I bust my hump every day of my life. I own my own business and go in day after day after day even when I don't feel well. And I do not sit behind a desk and I have no inheritance. And I have not paid any one to put me on to fish. I surf fish at times when most are sleeping. I put in my time and don't expect any one to hand anything to me. And by the way my chevy pick up has 190,000 miles on it and is my only vehicle

Your argument basically states that since other states can still have commercial fishing and that other comm's break the law then it's okay for everyone to do that. Come on man, at least be responsible.

Rec's may catch more fish but they kill far fewer. I dare say that 100% of the fish caught commercially are killed. Recreational fishermen kill very few of their catch....maybe 10% nationwide. For me it's 0% as I release them all....but that's just me. Plus rec's provide much more $$ for the economy than do comm's.

Personally I don't want to see any one's livelihood taken away but I feel saving the stock is more important than a few dollars. And don't call me a treehugger 'cause I am not. But without steps being taken to save the species it will be lost and then nothing will be left for anybody and the comm's will just move on to another species for their clients.

And again, I re-iterate that this is just one step in the right direction. The other is to stop the dragging for menhaden

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Intrepid24, Well You should know by now, Everything is blamed on commercials!!!

It's unfortunate, but many people stop caring about their long-term impact when money is motivating them. See: the financial meltdown, most politicians, Enron, etc.

[Back Beach]

[QUOTE=CowHunter;728380 Well You should know by now, Everything is blamed on commercials!!![/QUOTE]

That's not true. Anyone who is even remotely informed knows this isn't the case. Even with the abuses of the Mass commercial fishery it doesn't take a big stretch to realize the rec harvest is way out of control.

My biggest problem with the Mass commercial is we allow out of staters to get licenses and take our allocation... ice fishing and other illegal/shady practices abound too. Just due to the fact there's a place to sell or transport 30 fish at a time invites all this stuff. The taking of 1 million pounds of fish is a much lesser problem to me as its a small number of the total fish harvested coastwide.

If we implement a one fish per day rec season along with a daily limit of,say, six fish daily for charter operations, it will go a long way. Make the recs fish under the slot limit and the commercial will take care of itself. People will still abuse the commercial regardless, but its the recs we need to cut back.
In addition, we can still nuke New Jersey if its warranted...

[Brian L]

Rec's may catch more fish but they kill far fewer. I dare say that 100% of the fish caught commercially are killed. Recreational fishermen kill very few of their catch....maybe 10% nationwide. For me it's 0% as I release them all....but that's just me. Plus rec's provide much more $$ for the economy than do comm's.

I'm confused by this. Of course 100% of the comm catch is killed, that's the point isn't it? It's meant for food. Where does 10% come from? Then, you mention that rec's bring more into the economy but have a problem with comm's making money on fish. Either way, money is brought into an economy that creates dead fish. What's the difference? I'm not attacking rec's, as 90 percent of the Striper fishing I do is rec, btw. I just don't get the argument.

And 10% of the take of a few million anglers who fish all year is still a much bigger number than 100% of the comm take that occurs a few weeks a year. If you want to argue that recs kill fewer per trip, I'll have to agree with you, but no way in hell does the comm catch equal the rec, charter, and black market catch. (Thanks to Intrepid for distinguishing between comm catch and black market catch)

Comm fishing is still the only sector that can accurately tally fish mortality and therefore help properly manage fish stocks.

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

i guess since hardcore surfcasters fish at night they have no idea what happens on the water in the light.most of the C@R that i see is after a limit is already in the box.i guess most guys have never walked the docks out in Montauk when the partyboats recs and charter boats come in.take a look at moriches inlet, shinecock and jones ,fire island, rockaway and every other inlet on the east coast on a weekend.you don't have to be a genuis to see the damage being done by the rec's.you want to protect the bass,1 fish a day with a tag,no fishing sping and fall,just like snook fishing in florida.enforcement is easy,a few big fines and the word gets out fast.

[CowHunter]

BackBeach out of staters fish commercially for many other species in multiple states. Thats like telling you that you can only fish recreationally and kill your catch in Mass...

[Brian L]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

BackBeach out of staters fish commercially for many other species in multiple states. Thats like telling you that you can only fish recreationally and kill your catch in Mass...

You beat me to it... Agree 100%

With your rules, no more RI fishing for you, BB. You'll have to stay in Mass for now on. :^)

Although, I'm guessing that you're referring to people who catch fish in RI waters and sell them in Mass.