Boga style scale and mortality ?

[Poncho]

Great stuff guys and a big thank you to the pioneers who have saved stocks for my generation and younger to enjoy. I had a long conversation on the way home from the canal with a guy who has showed me everything I know about surf fishing about how conservation in the 80 s by keeping the size limits a few inches inches longer each year. All these 50 plus class being caught now arefish from that big school
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[bassballer]

Saying this as a big C&R guy, i think sometimse we need to step back and realize we are driving hooks into a fish's face. I think if you gave the fish a choice he would take being weghed for 5 seconds over a face full of treble hooks.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

...a study of this type could never be conclusive. Not even close. There are so many other variables that come into play that could effect the health of this fish prior to a weighing. .

Maybe not a 100% conclusive, but to say there are so many variables distorts the way research works. They will use control groups and isolate the variables as much as possible. If the fish that are hung by a gripper die at a higher rate than those that aren't and it is a repeatable test it can be conclusive, though more likely reported as significant differences between the groups. All you can ever have is significant differences.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

I'm no anatomist, but all that should be happening (from a physical standpoint) ..would be that its intestines, gonad, etc would settle near the fish's stomach/anus area. Nothing critical is getting crushed.

The anatomy of a fish is evolved for the neutrally buoyant forces of a primarily horizontal existence in water. When the fish is removed from the water, the resulting force on the anatomy of the fish is dramatically higher. "Settling" by hanging the fish has been reported to tear the tissue as a result of the non-typical force. It isn't a crushing issue. Humans die all the time from side impact car accidents in which no visible damage is done, but a non-typical sideways force causes the aorta to tear. The person appears fine and a few minutes later bleeds out and dies. Those types of injuries, along with dislocated jaws are the concern.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by DZ

I never thought I’d see the day when the few casters who started the Catch and Release ethic and played a major role in protecting the striped bass for this current generation would be criticized for weighing and then releasing striped bass… alive. No one should feel guilty about hanging the cows that they’ve caught on a hand scale and then releasing them with great care. if you want to estimate the weight by formula fine, but do not criticize others for practicing C&R the way they do. Just remember - we’re not all perfect but it’s the SPIRIT OF WHY WE’RE DOING IT WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF C&R. Please respect that.

I haven't heard anyone criticize... but I don't completely understand your post. C and R people shouldn't be criticized specifically for c and r. However, if they are releasing the fish after handling it in a way that will ultimately kill it, then it completely defeats the purpose of catch and release. It may be blissful ignorance. From the studies I have read, there is evidence that hanging a fish from a lipping device is often fatal. I have decided that I won't use them because I am not releasing fish to avoid filleting them, I do it to avoid killing them. If further studies back it up, I will start to criticize people who use them, just as I would criticize the guy who kicks them down the rocks. At least a guy who keeps it is going to eat it.

[bloocrab]

I do respect all opinions, and therefore consider myself further educated in the anatomy of a fish due to these recent posts. Can't say I buy it, hook, line and sinker...but there seems to be some merit to what was described. Studies can sometimes be biased. This is what bothers me about "studies" sometimes...whomever generates the study normally swings it in their direction, just my opinion

That being said, I can't claim to love fishing, yet at the same time, be saddened that I'm hurting the fish. I would not abuse the fish outside of the act of trying to catch it (I don't personally consider weighing a fish abusing it btw),,, yet in reading what (zimmy in particular) typed....how can one actively participate in the sport of fishing with such detailed concern for their health?
I was raised on catch and eat...not catch and waste, not catch, show & tell either as it's rare you see a fish/pic with me in it. As I've grown older, perhaps not wiser...but older, I also do my share of C&R. I enjoy fresh striped-bass. One fish feeds me and the freezer for a bit. When the season winds down, yes...I may stock a fish or two, but that's nothing compared to what I catch. (Not bragging in ANY sense what-so-ever)...When I kill, I kill to eat.
There are many flavors of fishermen on these boards. Take pride in what you do and why you do it, and all is good.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Clogston29

Anyone know if any studies have been done on release mortality of larger fish weighed on a Boga style scale? I have one and used to use it on fish I caught and planned to keep. I avoid using them on fish that I plan to release as I just assume that hanging a large fish by the lower jaw to get the weight would have an adverse effect on the fish. I got a good fish few nights ago, a new PB based on length, that I released and now not knowing the weight is kind of eating at me. I didn't even have a camera with me which I usually do and my phone battery was dead. Just wondering if my concerns over weighing fish to be released are valid. Thanks for any input.

...this is like every other question or discussion here...what's the best knot?...what's the best way to work a needlefish?....what's the best tide at a particular area?....what's the best recipe?.....what's the best way to handle and release a fish?...............fishermen are always looking for the best methods to do this or that, best tackle for various circumstances, best intel for various conditions, stands to reason they'd be curious about the best methods to handle and release a fish since they are forced to do it at some point hopefully. It's a great question and there is a lot of information on the topic. Like everything else, you do what you choose to with the info. Congrats on the fish, pretty sure you know with or without an official weight if it was way up there in the memorable department.

[Jackbass]

Originally Posted by JohnnySaxatilis

. This fish shot off like a monkey in a box

You'll catch me saying that eventually. This has been a good read lots of stuff on both sides. I have one I use it when a fish is bigger I have only killed one bass in my life (on purpose that came home) it was the only fish that didn't give me a shower and wasnt really floating the correct way for swimming. So I ended its misery i did try like hell to get her moving. Pretty sure the issue was not the boga
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[bart]

Congrats on an awesome fish and the release!

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

That being said, I can't claim to love fishing, yet at the same time, be saddened that I'm hurting the fish. I would not abuse the fish outside of the act of trying to catch it (I don't personally consider weighing a fish abusing it btw),,, yet in reading what (zimmy in particular) typed....how can one actively participate in the sport of fishing with such detailed concern for their health?

For me, it isn't an issue of be saddened about hurting fish.I look at it from the perspective that if I know what I am doing in handling the fish after catching it is likely to kill it, I will avoid doing it. I want as many 50lbers out there as possible. Like Scott said, you choose what to do with the info.

[Clogston29]

Thanks for the insight guys. Think i will continue to not use/carry the boga. Swimming away is not really a indicator that the fish is ok to me. I could run away from an altercation with a broken jaw, broken ribs and internal injuries but I wouldn't survive too long after in the wild.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[JohnnySaxatilis]

I just don't buy the fact that stripers really get hurt from holding them vertical for a few seconds to weigh. Was this "study" done specifically on stripers or just fish in general?

[numbskull]

Snook (and presumably Barramundi....a close relative) are indeed killed by suspension.

Bonefish are injured but did not die (at least in the 48hrs of the study).

Suspending them doesn't bother muskies much at all ...

"A growing number of musky fishermen believe that improper catch and release practice is the cause for the lack of their musky hunting success. Simply stated, they take the position that such things as: the "wrong type" of out-of-water holds; bleeding gills; and, incorrect netting techniques, etc., are killing a high percentage of released Muskies.

Although no previous study, to our knowledge, has ever examined the validity of these widely-held beliefs, we too, shared concern for the survival of released Muskies, especially after reviewing tables 3 and 4 of the CFMTP. For this reason, we made the decision to subject the study Muskies to a variety of popular and unpopular holds, netting practices, and release practices, etc. Considering that the catch and release participants of the study have caught and released in excess of 1,500 Muskies; and, for the most part, practice the "proper" release methods, it was determined that it was necessary to expose the Muskies of the study to the same type of conditions, practices and treatment that they would receive while in the control of inexperienced musky fishermen. Only then could we make confident determinations as to the affects of such treatment, practices and conditions on musky survivability. The first year results are in. in terms of the types of holds: horizontal vs. vertical vs. diagonal-- there was no affect on mortality. The same was true of netting and release practices. We had four study Muskies that bled from slightly to profusely from the gills and all survived more on that later. in addition, two others were hooked during battles in one eye. They also survived. At the time of their releases we "experts" would have bet that at least four of these Muskies would have died. But none of these Muskies died! The good news is that Muskies are much hardier than previously thought. in fact, 95.6% of the Muskies caught, radio-tagged and released for the study survived the open-water fishing season! Only two out of the forty-five Muskies of the study expired. Now, does this mean that we should abandon the cautious release methods that most have come to accept over the past few years? Absolutely not. But, these findings illustrate that we must be careful to label something as proper" or accept something as "fact" without appropriate supporting research data.

Incidentally, of the two Muskies that expired, only one died of angling related causes. As for the other musky, it was determined after much investigation, that it had reportedly met its demise in an otter trap! Strangely enough, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources indicates that this is not such an unusual occurrence. In fact, last year the DNR had recorded another musky, of twenty-two pounds, that also met its demise in an otter trap.

As we have revealed, the Chippewa Flowage Musky Study (CFMS) radio-telemetry proves that catch and release is a highly effective conservation practice with a 95.6% study survival rate. This fact, combined with the data of the 1979-1986 CFMTP, as well as record stocking levels since 1990, indicate that there are more Big 'Chip Muskies of all sizes, including more larger Muskies than ever before. The first year findings of the CFMS prove that catch and release is not only working, but it is exceeding some of the most optimistic of expectations concerning its' effectiveness. For example, before the study began, it was estimated by the majority of the biologists that we spoke with that we would observe a 35% mortality rate for Muskies that were caught and released. The fact that the mortality rate is much lower than ever before believed could have major implications for musky management practices and strategies. "

[numbskull]

Here is some info on LMB. Note that the first study quoted used lipping holds, much like a boga. They had minimal mortality at least short term (there is some info that an isthmus injury leads to slow starvation via ineffective feeding).


"A couple recently published studies* took a good look at how bass fared when held out of water (hypoxia) for extended periods of time, and the results might surprise you.
The first was a lab test comparing largemouth to smallmouth. Bass were physically exercised to simulate angling and then held by the jaw (“thumbed” just like most every angler does) for a randomly chosen amount of time up to 10 minutes out of the water and exposed to the air. Afterward, fish were placed back into a holding tank and observed and tested for some chemical parameter monitoring, then ultimately placed back into a raceway for 24 hours to observe for delayed mortality. Water temps ranged between 18-23 deg. C. (64-73 F) in this test. Largemouth recovered faster than smallmouth, as expected, but there were no documented mortality cases after 24 hours in either species.


In the other study, largemouth bass were caught from a lake and then held out of the water for varying amounts of time that ranged from 0 up to 15 minutes. Tests were conducted during two specific environmental time frames, once at 15 deg. C. (59 F) water temps and again at 21 deg. C. (70 F). Bass were also tested for various bodily (chemical) parameters and were then placed in a holding tank for 30 minutes of recovery/observation. During this time they were fitted with an external transmitter and then released back into the lake and tracked for 5 days. Fish held out of the water longer took longer to recover, as well as longer to leave their release area in the lake, but again, no delayed mortality occurred for any of the fish including those held out of the water for the maximum 15 minutes. "

[zimmy]

I am going to look into starting a study on stripers. Probably difficult to get large enough fish though.

[MAKAI]

Snook and barramundi appear to be suction feeders. Striped bass seem to be predominantly the same. The isthmus on a bass is that small area of flesh under the head between the gills. I can see where ( not so much on a small fish ) on a heavy fish that stress could be put on that particular area. So I'll err on the side of caution and release fish in the water wherever possible. I tend to use singles and crushed barbs anyway.
I kind of figure that keeping a fish out of water is akin to putting a plastic bag over my head after grinding out 40 minutes on the elliptical with my heart rate banging at 140 bpm.
Besides I'm too old where fish weights mean anything to to me anymore. I just like being out there getting a shot at them for lots of other reasons.
Not preaching, just one old guys way to go about it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[oldroe]

I believe with largemouth jaw separation came from the Texas Lunker program and there observation.

As one of the older guy with physical limitations bending over and un hooking fish is very difficult.

Do believe the boga grip could be re designed taking a little wider grip would held.

[oldroe]

I remember seeing the pic in bass master magazine of huge bass with obvious extended lower jaw.

With my limited experience with stripers up to 45 inches I've seen no extended lower jaws of released fish.

If the member's watch there fish for obvious extended lower jaw we should have answer quickly.