Country is On Fire

[The Dad Fisherman]

That whole photo-op thing came off as idiotic.
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[Pete F.]

There is no right to riot... But there is a fundamental—a Constitutional—right to protest, and I’m against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop.

[spence]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

That whole photo-op thing came off as idiotic.
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It’s beyond idiotic. Lawful and peaceful protestors had their rights violently stripped because Trump had his feelings hurt. This is squarely in unfit for office territory.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

There is no right to riot... But there is a fundamental—a Constitutional—right to protest, and I’m against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop.

actually....you have the Constitutional Right to Free Speech and Peaceable Assembly....protesting in a road or highway is not Peaceable Assembly.....try walking into traffic in solidarity with your wife because you are both angry that your trash didn't get picked up in time and refuse to get out of traffic and you'll either get run over or arrested...protesters don't get to screw up the lives of others, if they do they are not Peaceably Assembled.....their beef isn't with others...it's with "the system"...they should camp out in the places where "the system"--- police stations, police union offices, AG's offices, mayors, governors and other elected officials....is/are located and leave everyone else alone...but this is about more than that

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

It’s beyond idiotic. Lawful and peaceful protestors had their rights violently stripped because Trump had his feelings hurt. This is squarely in unfit for office territory.
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you are unfit for posting....take a timeout in your safe space and check back later

[detbuch]

QUOTE=Pete F.;1194305]There is no right to riot... But there is a fundamental—a Constitutional—right to protest, and I’m against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop.[/QUOTE]

If you don't want him to "hide" in a bunker, then if he comes out, wherever he goes, the secret service along with law enforcement will clear out the area. This is what happens with every President, especially in dangerous situations.

The Word of God is not a prop. Holding up the Bible, regardless of its orientation, is an affirmation of the importance of its message in times when we especially need to adhere to its Words. You may wish to scoff at his sincerity, but you could do that to Christ himself, as did the Pharisees when he spoke the Word of God to them.

Your using his holding up the Word of God as insincere is using the Word of God as a prop to attack him. You can't know what he honestly thinks about the Bible and God's Word. Christ was closest to the simple sinners who sought his help, rather than the know it all and haughty self-righteous who thought they were better. He forgave and saved several sinners, including the thief on the cross if they professed to believe in him, on the spot.

Trump's past life does not discount that he has had a come to Jesus moment. But, then, you think you know it all.

Many, who you may mock, think that the Word of God is what's needed more than anything at this troubled time in or nation.

But you may think you know all that's needed to judge them.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by detbuch

QUOTE=Pete F.;1194305]There is no right to riot... But there is a fundamental—a Constitutional—right to protest, and I’m against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop.

If you don't want him to "hide" in a bunker, then if he comes out, wherever he goes, the secret service along with law enforcement will clear out the area. This is what happens with every President, especially in dangerous situations.

The Word of God is not a prop. Holding up the Bible, regardless of its orientation, is an affirmation of the importance of its message in times when we especially need to adhere to its Words. You may wish to scoff at his sincerity, but you could do that to Christ himself, as did the Pharisees when he spoke the Word of God to them.

Your using his holding up the Word of God as insincere is using the Word of God as a prop to attack him. You can't know what he honestly thinks about the Bible and God's Word. Christ was closest to the simple sinners who sought his help, rather than the know it all and haughty self-righteous who thought they were better. He forgave and saved several sinners, including the thief on the cross if they professed to believe in him, on the spot.

Trump's past life does not discount that he has had a come to Jesus moment. But, then, you think you know it all.

Many, who you may mock, think that the Word of God is what's needed more than anything at this troubled time in or nation.

But you may think you know all that's needed to judge them.[/QUOTE]

You state Pete can’t know what a Trump is thinking and in the same post state Trump had a come to Jesus moment, so he can’t read minds but you can.

I personally believe that Trump did it strictly for the optics and photo op, I seriously doubt he has ever had a come to Jesus moment, that’s my opinion.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

QUOTE=Pete F.;1194305]There is no right to riot... But there is a fundamental—a Constitutional—right to protest, and I’m against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop.

If you don't want him to "hide" in a bunker, then if he comes out, wherever he goes, the secret service along with law enforcement will clear out the area. This is what happens with every President, especially in dangerous situations.

Nobody made him go across the street for a photo op. Ask the rector, who was driven off church property with tear gas, flashbangs and rubber bullets. Nothing was dangerous until the federal officers attacked.

The Word of God is not a prop. Holding up the Bible, regardless of its orientation, is an affirmation of the importance of its message in times when we especially need to adhere to its Words. You may wish to scoff at his sincerity, but you could do that to Christ himself, as did the Pharisees when he spoke the Word of God to them.

When you have your daughter bring the Bible in her pocketbook and she hands it to you just before you do your pose, you are using it as a prop.

Your using his holding up the Word of God as insincere is using the Word of God as a prop to attack him. You can't know what he honestly thinks about the Bible and God's Word. Christ was closest to the simple sinners who sought his help, rather than the know it all and haughty self-righteous who thought they were better. He forgave and saved several sinners, including the thief on the cross if they professed to believe in him, on the spot.

Trump's past life does not discount that he has had a come to Jesus moment. But, then, you think you know it all.

Many, who you may mock, think that the Word of God is what's needed more than anything at this troubled time in or nation.

But you may think you know all that's needed to judge them[/QUOTE]

Which word of god, do you speak of?
Here's some history of Neo-Confederate, white-identity, apocalyptic evangelicalism, that some call the Cult of the Shining City.

This is who Donald Trump was messaging yesterday with his bible stunt.

For starters, the Cult of the Shining City is not an organized group. The members, most of them, believe they're just evangelicals. There are members with power who use them and manipulate them.

But there are millions of them, and they worship Donald Trump like a messiah.

None of this is tin-foil hat stuff. It's not about smoky rooms. It's the hidden history of how America's Right has been co-opted into an apocalyptic fantasy that currently threatens our safety and the safety of the world.

This is history, not conjecture. It's how we got here.

Trump's photo-op yesterday seemed bizarre to everyone but people who grew up in white-identity, apocalyptic evangelicalism.

This was a choreographed messaged that Trump is engaging in a holy battle on behalf of God and Christians, but also a possible call to violence.

Not every Cult of the Shining City member believes Trump is a messiah, but almost all believe he is a holy man fighting on their behalf.

The beliefs vary, but it is an apocalyptic cult that Trump has used to build his base.

To begin, we have to start with the Confederate States of America. Secession was done, in part, based on the belief that the North had violated God's racist commandments.

They believed in "an Almighty God" who crowned white people as his champions on Earth.

The Confederate States of America was an explicitly Christian nation, in definition and practice. The society was built upon the idea that God was a white supremacist being who ordered whites to enslave lesser people.

White supremacist Christianity was the CSA's reality.

Confederate preachers like Benjamin M Palmer warned of "perilous atheists" in the North who sought to betray the racist God's white supremacy religion.

They preached that slavery and white supremacy were ordained by God and that the North was becoming devilish.

The Confederacy split not only politically, but religiously. They claimed to continue the heritage of the original United States, and claimed to be the real America.

This was based on their religious belief in a white supremacist God and also political advantage.

Contrary to popular belief, the Confederacy didn't consider itself a separate country, but the actual America and the heritage of the Founding Fathers.

They embraced George Washington, particularly, as Jefferson Davis was sworn in under a memorial to him.

Jefferson Davis and other Confederate leaders blamed the people's lack of faith in the racist God for their defeats, ordering days of humiliation and fasting in order to get right.

Failure was seen as God's fury for disbelief in his white supremacist orders.

When the Civil War ended, it was seen as a reunification of culture, but the Confederate Christianity didn't just go away. Southern preachers continued preaching that God was a white supremacist and that blacks were to be subjugated and enslaved.

It stills exists now.

One of the Southern preachers who believed in God-ordained white supremacy was Jerry Falwell, whose ministry held segregation as a Godly decree and any attempt toward equality the work of Satan.

Falwell called segregation a "line drawn by God" and warned that any attempt to desegregate or dismantle white supremacy was the work of the Devil and would draw God's anger.

Like Confederate preachers of old.

Civil Rights protests gained the attention of Confederate Christians like Falwell, who charged that protestors were doing Satan's work and were being "manipulated" by outside forces, including Communists and anarchists. It was a charge of spiritual war.

Despite popular history claiming Martin Luther King was beloved, he was treated like a satanic antichrist, using Christianity for nefarious purposes people like Falwell and segregationists claimed were Communist and devilish purposes.

Falwell aired his suspicions about MLK and disputed his social justice interpretation of the Bible.

To counteract, Falwell and others actively moved their faith toward hidden white supremacy through ideas of power and economic success.

All tenets of white supremacy.

The new Evangelical Right was white supremacist and Neo-Confederate in nature, but hid that prejudice behind the idea of morality and achieving success through the economic world.

Christianity was about power and profit. Fascistic pursuits behind a smiling veneer.

[PaulS]

Maybe he was just reading his favorite scripture in the bible 2 Corinthians and decided to walk to a church.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

That whole photo-op thing came off as idiotic.
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you know I respect your opinion, can you explain why?

I'm a fairly devout Catholic. I don't think for a nanosecond that Trump is a man of faith. but I saw that live, and I kind of liked it.

People are upset he stood in front of a church with a bible. They aren't nearly as upset that the church, an important historic landmark, was set on fire the night before.

People are upset that protesters were cleared out. Every single time the president wants to go somewhere, the secret service clears that area. And if people refuse the lawful order to clear the area, they are forcibly removed. If they were tear gassed, I'm willing to bet they refused to leave. That's on them.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I personally believe that Trump did it strictly for the optics and photo op, I seriously doubt he has ever had a come to Jesus moment, that’s my opinion.

shocking

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

That whole photo-op thing came off as idiotic.
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they usually do...... it takes a skilled and polished politician to "appear" genuine when they are being completely phony

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

If you don't want him to "hide" in a bunker, then if he comes out, wherever he goes, the secret service along with law enforcement will clear out the area. This is what happens with every President, especially in dangerous situations.

The Word of God is not a prop. Holding up the Bible, regardless of its orientation, is an affirmation of the importance of its message in times when we especially need to adhere to its Words. You may wish to scoff at his sincerity, but you could do that to Christ himself, as did the Pharisees when he spoke the Word of God to them.

Your using his holding up the Word of God as insincere is using the Word of God as a prop to attack him. You can't know what he honestly thinks about the Bible and God's Word. Christ was closest to the simple sinners who sought his help, rather than the know it all and haughty self-righteous who thought they were better. He forgave and saved several sinners, including the thief on the cross if they professed to believe in him, on the spot.

Trump's past life does not discount that he has had a come to Jesus moment. But, then, you think you know it all.

Many, who you may mock, think that the Word of God is what's needed more than anything at this troubled time in or nation.

But you may think you know all that's needed to judge them.

You state Pete can’t know what a Trump is thinking and in the same post state Trump had a come to Jesus moment, so he can’t read minds but you can.

You're right. I didn't state it the way I was thinking it. Instead of saying "does not discount that he has had a come to Jesus moment." I should have said "does not discount that he might have had a come to Jesus moment."--which is what I meant.

I personally believe that Trump did it strictly for the optics and photo op, I seriously doubt he has ever had a come to Jesus moment, that’s my opinion.[/QUOTE]

That's a good, honest, way of stating it. But claiming for certain that it was a prop is making an assumption. And quite possibly a disrespectful one to people of faith. But, then, as I said, Peete thinks he knows it all.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you know I respect your opinion, can you explain why?

I'm a fairly devout Catholic. I don't think for a nanosecond that Trump is a man of faith. but I saw that live, and I kind of liked it.

People are upset he stood in front of a church with a bible. They aren't nearly as upset that the church, an important historic landmark, was set on fire the night before.

People are upset that protesters were cleared out. Every single time the president wants to go somewhere, the secret service clears that area. And if people refuse the lawful order to clear the area, they are forcibly removed. If they were tear gassed, I'm willing to bet they refused to leave. That's on them.

The optics were just terrible, from the man handling of the crowd, to the posturing in front of the church. It just looked idiotic. Poor execution, start to finish.
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[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Why do you insult people constantly and add nothing constructive to this forum?

The reality is you said you don’t insult folks unless you have been insulted. So either you lied (again) or you took my question as an insult. Sorry for the confusion.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

People are upset that protesters were cleared out. Every single time the president wants to go somewhere, the secret service clears that area. And if people refuse the lawful order to clear the area, they are forcibly removed. If they were tear gassed, I'm willing to bet they refused to leave. That's on them.

From what I’ve read the secret service clears the park frequently. They don’t use tear gas or rubber bullets. They don’t rush the crowd with shields or attack reporters. They don’t use national guard medivac helicopters, with Red Cross insignia mind you, flying low to harass the crowd.

This was a planned overreaching show of force to make Trump feel like a tough guy. It is pathetic.
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[RickBomba]

Our tax dollars at work. How many hamberders and cofeve you think he chugged hiding like a rat in that bunker.

#T&F might help him a little. Black is a slimming color.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

From what I’ve read the secret service clears the park frequently. They don’t use tear gas or rubber bullets. They don’t rush the crowd with shields or attack reporters. They don’t use national guard medivac helicopters, with Red Cross insignia mind you, flying low to harass the crowd.

This was a planned overreaching show of force to make Trump feel like a tough guy. It is pathetic.
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A different spin on it by Bongino--first five or ten minutes of the video:

[detbuch]

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

ah, trump doesn’t like
blacks. trump, who celebrated low black unemployment and who advocated for criminal justice reform which disproportionately helps blacks, he doesn’t like
blacks.

put down the kool aid and use the brain god gave you.
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I’d ask the same of you. I’m not saying he doesn’t like black people. I’m saying that he is playing both sides of a coin, and that game lays conveniently across a perceived racial line.

Let’s peel back the racial component of it for a second: He is saying that he wants states to deal with their problems themselves but then says he is going to send in the military regardless of state support to meddle in municipal law and order enforcement.

Where was the offer to send in the military and all the resources of the federal government when Covid was ravaging states from coast to coast and governors were begging him to help?

Use the brain you were given to realize that he thinks he is playing 3D chess but everyone is just watching him play checkers.

Many things can be true at the same time.
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[Ian]

Originally Posted by detbuch

That's a good, honest, way of stating it. But claiming for certain that it was a prop is making an assumption. And quite possibly a disrespectful one to people of faith. But, then, as I said, Peete thinks he knows it all.

You can’t say that making that assumption is possibly disrespectful to people of faith because what he did wasn’t faithful or religious.

He held up a bible backwards and upside down, didn’t say a prayer, and spouted some broken BS about making things awesome until they stopped taking pictures and then abruptly walked away.

If that’s not disrespectful to people of the episcopal faith, nothing is.
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[detbuch]

[RickBomba]

Riots in Brockton.

Now I see why you guys stocked up on ammo.

God Bless America.

Holy Christ.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Ian

You can’t say that making that assumption is possibly disrespectful to people of faith because what he did wasn’t faithful or religious.

He held up a bible backwards and upside down, didn’t say a prayer, and spouted some broken BS about making things awesome until they stopped taking pictures and then abruptly walked away.

If that’s not disrespectful to people of the episcopal faith, nothing is.

None of the major news outlets that I checked said he was holding the Bible upside down and backwards. Some said he was holding it awkwardly. I found the backwards upside down assertion in some minor, biased outlets and in the left wing Guardian. I checked the photo of him holding the Bible, and the ribbon used as a page marker was properly hanging down from the bottom if he was holding it right side up, as is the case in books with ribbon markers because they start at the top of the book then go down between the marked pages with the excess portion sticking out at the bottom when the book is closed.

If the Bible was being held upside down, and the ribbon was hanging from the top where it starts (but would be the bottom as he was holding it), the length of the ribbon hanging outside of the book would be as long as the Bible plus the excess needed for page marking. The ribbon in the picture I saw was nowhere near that long, but more like the excess length needed to mark the page and properly hanging from the bottom of the book. That would indicate that the Bible was not being held upside down.

If he held it "backwards" that would merely indicate that the front was facing him, which doesn't sound disrespectful.

Saying that he "spouted" some "broken BS" is your obviously negative characterization. True, the pastor of the church didn't like what Trump did.

Here is what some other Christian leaders said who might possibly think what Pete said was disrespectful:

Robert Jeffress, a Dallas megachurch pastor:
“I thought it was completely appropriate for the president to stand in front of that church, and by holding up the Bible, he was showing us that it teaches that, yes, God hates racism, it’s despicable—but God also hates lawlessness.”

David Brody, a news anchor at the Christian Broadcasting Network:
“I don’t know about you but I’ll take a president with a Bible in his hand in front of a church over far left violent radicals setting a church on fire any day of the week”

Johnnie Moore, the president of the Congress of Christian Leaders:
“I will never forget seeing [Trump] slowly & in-total-command walk … across Lafayette Square to St. John’s Church defying those who aim to derail our national healing by spreading fear, hate & anarchy.”

Ralph Reed, the chairman of the Faith and Freedom Coalition:
“His presence sent the twin message that our streets and cities do not belong to rioters and domestic terrorists, and that the ultimate answer to what ails our country can be found in the repentance, redemption, and forgiveness of the Christian faith.”

You probably, or might, not like or agree with any of them. But there are Christians who welcome holding up the Bible in a time of trouble, even if it is being held by a sinner. It is the message, not the messenger, that ultimately matters. And they might feel it was disrespectful to call the Bible, the holy message in which they fervently believe, a prop.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Ian

I’d ask the same of you. I’m not saying he doesn’t like black people. I’m saying that he is playing both sides of a coin, and that game lays conveniently across a perceived racial line.

Let’s peel back the racial component of it for a second: He is saying that he wants states to deal with their problems themselves

No, he was saying, in effect, that the states should deal with the problems that were their responsibilities. And he certainly did help them with a lot of the problems they were responsible for. The notion that he left it all to the states is way off.
He did a whole lot and was criticized for not doing it soon enough or well enough, but the states were way behind and derelict in their responsibilities. Without what he did, they might still be in the primary stage of responding to the virus.

but then says he is going to send in the military regardless of state support to meddle in municipal law and order enforcement.

It would be responsible and show leadership by protecting the citizens when the governors failed to do so. That would not be meddling, it would be getting the job done.

Where was the offer to send in the military and all the resources of the federal government when Covid was ravaging states from coast to coast and governors were begging him to help?

What are you talking about? What resources did he not send? He provided most of the medical equipment that the states should have had in stock. He replenished the depleted federal stock that the previous administration let get depleted without restocking. He had the military build facilities to house an expected overflow of patients in New York, the epicenter in the country. He provided a military ship to the Port of New York to house more. Cuomo put COVID patients in nursing homes and didn't use up the beds Trump provided. He got private industry to manufacture supplies that were not on the market. He removed some FDA restrictions in order to fast track the production of a virus and requested as well as aided drug companies to try to produce it possibly toward the end of the year or sooner.

Use the brain you were given to realize that he thinks he is playing 3D chess but everyone is just watching him play checkers.

"Everyone" does not see it the way you do.

Many things can be true at the same time.

Right.

[Ian]

Done here
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

From what I’ve read the secret service clears the park frequently. They don’t use tear gas or rubber bullets. They don’t rush the crowd with shields or attack reporters. They don’t use national guard medivac helicopters, with Red Cross insignia mind you, flying low to harass the crowd.

This was a planned overreaching show of force to make Trump feel like a tough guy. It is pathetic.

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this post is an overreach....sorry,....no tear gas

"Following days of violent riots and looting in cities across the country, Washington, D.C., announced a 7 p.m. curfew on Monday night. About the same time, President Donald Trump addressed the nation from the Rose Garden. Afterward, he walked through Lafayette Park to St. John’s Episcopal Church, which rioters had set on fire the night before. Standing before the church sign, which reads “All are welcome,” President Trump, who previously said he’d be paying his respects to a very special place, held up a Bible.

The speech announcing the country would return to rule of law and protection of civil liberties, the walk through a park that the night before had been given over to rioters, and the visit to the vandalized historic church where every president has worshiped since James Madison, were reassuring to many in the country.


For the media, however, these actions were further proof that Orange Man Bad is literally the worst, restoring rule of law is criminal, and standing in front of a church holding a Bible is an assault on the American conscience. They focused on how the Park Police had cleared the area ahead of the city-wide curfew declared by D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser.

Facts were no barrier to their narrative. They spun a tale of violent, jack-booted cops running rampant through the streets over innocent docile protesters, using tear gas to clear the area. It turns out none of that was true.

Every single major media outlet falsely reported that Park Police were unprovoked when they used “tear gas” to clear the area. If any of that were true, it might mark the first time in history that cops without gas masks launched tear gas in an area that the president of the United States easily walked through minutes later.

After thousands of false tweets, print stories, and broadcast stories to the contrary, local journalist Neal Augenstein of WTOP reported that a Park Police source said “tear gas was never used — instead smoke canisters were deployed, which don’t have an uncomfortable irritant in them.” Further, the source said the crowd was dispersed because of projectiles being thrown by the “peaceful protesters” at the Park Police and because “peaceful protesters” had climbed on top of a structure in Lafayette Park that had been burned the prior night.


Sgt. Eduardo Delgado, the public information officer for the Park Police, confirmed the agency did not use tear gas. And later this afternoon, United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory T. Monahan exploded the entire false narrative:

On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park. At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.

To curtail the violence that was underway, the USPP, following established policy, issued three warnings over a loudspeaker to alert demonstrators on H Street to evacuate the area. Horse mounted patrol, Civil Disturbance Units and additional personnel were used to clear the area. As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls. No tear gas was used by USPP officers or other assisting law enforcement partners to close the area at Lafayette Park. Subsequently, the fence was installed.

Nearly every major media outlet falsely reported that canisters of tear gas, not smoke canisters, were used against "peaceful protesters".

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Ian

Done here
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It’s like debating Trump himself, they too are never wrong and they are dizzy from all the spinning they need to do to state their cases.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by RickBomba

Riots in Brockton.

Now I see why you guys stocked up on ammo.

God Bless America.

Holy Christ.
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The natives seemed restless
Stay home and breathe

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

The reality is you said you don’t insult folks unless you have been insulted. So either you lied (again) or you took my question as an insult. Sorry for the confusion.

Roly (you fat overweight out of shape slob) - I once said Trump said the virus would one day miraculously disappear and he said mysteriously - and for that you accuse me of lying. This is why I think you are a vile scummy loser and I feel sorry for the people who have to associate with you on a day to day basis.