Don't believe global warming is happening?

[UserRemoved1]

These will change your mind....

Look at the before and after photos here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ing/html/1.stm

Then look at the photographers page who took those pictures and who has done a pretty good synopsis of what's going on..

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/

SCARY CHIT.

[spence]

Oh come on Salty, it just needs more study

I liked Buhs's absurd statement the other day that He won't sign onto any environmental plan that costs America jobs. What a freakin con artist.

Given that global warming induced extremes in weather will likely do much damage, it wouldn't suprise me if W ties it to a job creation initiative

-spence

[UserRemoved1]

I think the one that says it all is the pic of the glacier...then the Hatteras house... wow.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally posted by spence
Oh come on Salty, it just needs more study

I liked Buhs's absurd statement the other day that He won't sign onto any environmental plan that costs America jobs. What a freakin con artist.

Given that global warming induced extremes in weather will likely do much damage, it wouldn't suprise me if W ties it to a job creation initiative

-spence

SPence, you drive an electric car , right? Don't use any aersol to paint your plugs, right?

Convervations startus with YOU. Don't blame the president, he is trying to preserve the way of life Americans have defined. Its everyone's personal responsibility.

[spence]

BULLSHYTE

The President is ignoring 99.9% of the World's scientists, the Pentagon and every other Nation at the behest of the oil and energy industries. He's not even willing to recognize there is a problem.

This isn't a partisan attack. It's about foolishness and greed.

I personally don't drive a gas guzzler, I keep the heat turned down as low as I can, I recycle everything allowable, I purchase organic and natural foods whenever possible.

This individual is doing what he can. On a matter of such importance I expect the leader of the largest polluter in the World to lead, not hang out with the ostriches.

-spence

[MakoMike]

I don't think anyone is questioning the fcat that the global temperature is rising. What is open to debate os the reason why it is happening. About half of the sceintists point to "greenhouse" gases, the other half point to normal cyclical variations. Who should we believe and why?

[spence]

I don't believe it's 1/2 and 1/2. There is a tremendous amount of evidence to support man-made influence in this century.

The problem is, we need to be prepared for it regardless. Buhs's stance is to ignore and delay any action that may have a cost.

At the very least they could officially recognise the threat and come up with a long term plan. We have the ability to lead the world to ensure it doesn't do our economy harm.

-spence

[Saltheart]

Off to the Scuppers with this one!

[spence]

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally posted by spence


This individual is doing what he can. On a matter of such importance I expect the leader of the largest polluter in the World to lead, not hang out with the ostriches.

-spence [/B]

HUH??? Please explain why SUVS are the best selling cars? Most individuals are doing squat.

[spence]

I said this individual

I don't curse everyone for driving a large truck. Some people need them for work etc...

I do think it's absurd for so many to drive 8mpg SUV's as a car to ferry kids and get groceries.

We've certianly enjoyed a lifestyle that's somewhat unrealistic. Our economic and military strength have been used to keep gas prices low compared to the rest of the world. There's is not a limitless supply of oil, and the shyte will hit the fan sooner rather than later.

The government can raise MGP standards, provide incentives for green vehicles, develop alternate transportation etc...

I'd prefer we're prepared...

-spence

[spence]

Of course, I personally exempt all surfcasting buggy's from this example



-spence

[Mr. Sandman]

Not concerned. The earth has been around for billions of years, right? During that period, science has shown that the earth has gone thru periods of deep freeze as well as hot arid conditions. Few argue these points. The period of these changes is longer then these snippets of photos.

Moreover, no people were around way back then. Who was to blame? (must have been the republican dino's )

Lets keep in mind that when a big volcano erupts, it puts out more toxic gas then all the exhaust fumes produced from autos for decades. Sure we should do what can to stem polution as technology permits but you need see the big picture. Everthing is NOT mankinds fault and it is esp not G%$%$%$%$'s fault.

The time scale of those photos are so small (100 years maybe) that no long term trend can be established. The earth clearly has changed in cycles for billions of years there is NO evidence that anything has changed. So, over the last 100 years the earth is warming....so what? that does not mean it will continue! Perhaps, If you extrapolate from a tiny slice in time to the future, things could look ugly. This is like saying, my child grew 3" this yearand gained 20#...this doesn't mean that he will be 17.5' and 1400# when he is 70 years old.
THis is ***exactly*** the kind of "science" you are refering too. It is aimed at specific people to scare for various reasons as well as for political reasons.

BTW, per our productivity or output, we produce FAR less pollents then most of the world. Sure if you don't MAKE anything you can have less waste.

[RIJIMMY]

Spence, sorry mis-read your response, I thought you said "the" individual.

[BigBo]

Spence, with all due respect.................please give it a rest.
Before I even opened this thread, I knew you'd be one of the first to turn it into a GWB bashing agenda. It's really getting old.

[spence]

BigBo, I happen to think this is a pretty serious and important issue along with a host of other environmental problems, that are being intentionally ignored. Not all of this is Buhs's fault, but He's got the ball and is doing everything possible to undermine a clean game.

Sandman, the Earth may have gone through dramatic change before...but not with developed coastlines and a Global population that requires massive amounts of clean water and agriculture to exist.

-spence

[Skip N]

Yep its all W's fault

[Mr. Sandman]

Spence, I doubt we can do anything to stop mother nature from doing what she wants to. These scientists are making a incorrect *assumption* about what they think is causing these changes. we can't save the world....if the water starts to rise you need to move. Perhaps we should educate the world to this ?

I would worry more about illegals getting vaild drivers lic and mooching your healthcare systerm into the ground then the 0.1 deg rise in the earths temp.

I like to blame sunspots for everthing. damn sunspots.

[Windcheater John]

It is not the earth that is in trouble, it is the human population that is in trouble, when it has had enough of us we will be recycled. The earth will be here long after our kind have left!

[RIROCKHOUND]

My 0.02

I think partisan politics aside oil/energy is keeping the US from signing, %$%$%$%$ officially declared it dead but WJC could have done more (higher MPG's etc) during his reign as well

As far as the science is concerned Sandman is on the right track in that the earth has gone through extreme cycles during the last 4600 Million years of the Earth's existence... During the Cretacous, which ended with the impact event that killed the Dino's 65Ma, there was a sea up the midwest known as the interior seaway, that means that we'd be surfcasting in Iowa or somewhere if we were there.. (Spence!)

More recently during the last glacial maximum (~25,000 years BP) sea level was 120m lower than today, so the shoreline was out on the shelf edge at the 360ft contour...

Previous work in the Holocene (the last 10,000yrs) showed a relativly quiet time climatically, however in recent years, studies have shown that many of the same phenominon that existed then and today are driven by things such as solar radiation cycles etc with cycles of 100's of years...

There is little evidence opposing the fact that global temperatures are increasing.. how much of that is human induced is still up for debate, however it may not be the intensity of the extremems that we are seeing today, but rather the increased rate these changes are occuring in, maybe this isnt that different to the past, but most evidence is suggesting that at the present change is happening faster than it should....

As they say, the present is the key to the past, but science is shifting towards looking at the processes that were present in previous warmer/colder periods, and how they would impact todays society, rather than just using previous times as a direct analog.....

Spence mentioned having a developed shoreline, and thats true, sea level rise and coastal erosion (which on the shorter term are unrelated which we can debate another time if you dont believe me) would not be a problem if we werent living there... As my advisor likes to say, the beach will always be there, probably just not where you want it to be...

To get back to Sandman's point that the earth will be fine, in the long term you are correct, we're the proverbial flea on the dogs back. whatever we F up on the planet will be negligable in the a few million years (unless we're still here)
You are right about volcanos releasing more gas (water vapor, CO2, Sulfur etc) than humans, but the impact this has on the overall climate system is generally short term (a few years) and generally cools the planet because of particles in the atmosphere.... our impact is sustained, specifically increasing inputs to the carbon cycle by burning carbon that was buried millions of years ago and re-releasing it to the atmosphere...

My take, having read a fair amount of literature on the likelyhood of global warming as well as studies on the geologic past, I think that we need to be prepared, not only to face extreme climate events but also to face some changes in the structure of our economy and industry as a country and as a planet... I'd point you towards Rifkin's Book "The Hydrogen Economy" for a good read.... Do I believe personally that the Earths climate is changing? Yes, 100% I belieive some change is going on... do I believe 100% that we have some impact? Yes... Do I beleive we are the only factor 100% Not yet, there is so much contradictory evidence, the more you read, the less your sure of... which is why this is such a sticky wicket...

Trying to combat global warming may not be possible either because we have done too much already or because it is a natural cycle, but I feel that it is an issue that should go beyond partisan bickering, and past the national level... there is a reason most major climate studies are done with multiple contries, (do a google search on IPCC) because this is a global problem, not a US, Japan, Russia etc.. problem....

(edit added after->) I think combat is the wrong word above, I think deal with, accept and live with global warming/climate change and the resultant impacts is what I really meant..

whew, that was a long rant, if you managed to read this far I appologize for ranting and raving... this was the first time in a while I;ve had to organize this stuff in my head, so it may have been a bit disjointed...

Bryan
Ranting and Raving Geologist....

[rivsie11]

One of the more interesting climate changes occured in Europe during the 15-17 centuries (I think, that's apx) when the average tempature dropped a degree or two. I have read history concerning the Bubonic Plague that cite the tempature drop as a correlating factor to the unhealthy conditions of the time.

I did not even know they had Right Guard spray back then.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Your refering to the "Little Ice Age" which was preceeded by the medieval warm period... its all a Cluster F... who really knows anyways

[spence]

Pretty sedate for a rant there OAK



-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

Ok, fine, how about a brain dump, not rant... besides you know I;m not a volotile person

I need to lay off the caffine

[Mr. Sandman]

RI-ROCK-HOUND...

I defer to your expertise on this matter.

I plan to continue to press on with my life and not get too heated up about this issue.

I thought you were a different kind of rock hound...a guy you like to fish from rocks

[RIROCKHOUND]

Sandman,

I am more of the fishing king of rockhound, I'm a "no rock" geologist" by trade, specifically I work in the recent (last 25,000) years on glacial and coastal geology

You made excellent points, I wasnt trying to crush anyone or imply I am an expert, I certainly am not I've just read a bunch of this stuff and have strong opinions as does everyone else here... my inention wasnt to be condecending etc.. I just wanted to clarify a few points and offer some insight where I thought appropriate....

[spence]

All good points Oak...being an expert is relative

My real beef is that corporate interests have had a larger influence over the interpretation of science in the past 4 years than possibly ever before. This has led to roll-backs of legislative progress and shunning Global discussions all in the name of GDP and margin. We;ve done this plenty of times in the past, but the stakes keep getting higher and higher.

Global warming isn't our fault, there are too many trees, asbestos and MTBE are good for you, mercury isn't all that toxic, fossil fuels are limitless etc...

If you think I'm being silly, look at what's really going on

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

Spence, there is always a danger to that, when a major study comes out it is always important to look at who is underwritting it... most scienctists are honest, however if you go in with preconcived ideas it is easy to come out with preconcived answers....

[RIJIMMY]

If it warms up around here, I may reconsider moving down into rebel country.

[UserRemoved1]

WOW I started this POST?