They Think It Can't Happen Here Again!!!!

[beachwalker]

ok spence, I set myself up for that...

I haven't heard much reporting on "ATROCITIES" at Gitmo since the reports of their return and their subsequent reports....


do you have anything current that I have missed ?

i hope so.....


The right and the left are usually poorly informed, IMO, and that has a huge impact on their rhetoric.

[Swimmer]

I am addressing many issues mentioned here bear with me.

We did rebuild Germany and they paid every cent we told them it cost. They are the only country to do so. We took over Japan and instituted our form of democracy there. That was their payback. If Haliburton wasn't submitting the lowest contract bids some other company would be with "ties" to one of our current leaders.
As far as WMD's, nope no one found any amount that could be considered a stockpile. Did he have and use them in the past, just ask the KURDS. Did Saddam and his henchmen kill 300,000 non believers, just ask their families who have been digging their bodies up. And Saddam showed so much arrogance in those peoples murders he left their identification with thier bodies. 300,000 is all they have founbd so far because things are a little hot out in the desert in Iraq right now, so no looking is going on.
Why are we the only country that is supposed to be blessed with free speech and a democratic way of life? In this regard we are extremely selfish. Sure we give money, we give many things and now we are giving are most precious children to this cause. I am not referring to one person here on this
list when I say this but many people are starting to sound like Jane Fonda out there, and most of them are doing and saying things only because they want to unseat George Bush. These Fondas, certain senators and congressman,
do not really care about our servicemen and women they just want to get a democrat in the high office, which makes thier intentions rather obscene.
To say that we shouldn't be there is to say that their isn't an Iraqi worth saving. You can't always bandaid problems overseas with foreign aid and hope thing will get better. Sometimes you have to gut it up and do the right thing and sometimes that hurts.

[likwid]

This is also a VERY different situation Mike, occupying and just sitting on the country is NOT working this time around.

Just because it worked before dosen't mean it'll work again.
Maybe you're forgetting the ENORMOUS DEBT that we're accruing from all this?

Whats it all worth? Honestly.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Name the "International law" that many believe we are violating. there are no rules governing non-POWs. There are no laws, international or otherwise that govern how a soverign nation can treat detainess outside their own country who are not POWs.

That's simply not true. The Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions detail treament of prisoners who don't have POW status. The US Army's field manual even recognizes protections for non-POW's "engaged in hostile or belligerent conduct."

Perhaps even more significant was the recent US Supreme court ruling that "United States courts have jurisdiction to consider challenges to the legality of the detention of foreign nationals captured abroad in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at Guantánamo Bay."

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by beachwalker

ok spence, I set myself up for that...

I haven't heard much reporting on "ATROCITIES" at Gitmo since the reports of their return and their subsequent reports....

Wasn't that like 2 weeks ago?

-spence

[Nebe]

I will never forget the day i was having breakfast and read that bush and CO refused to re-sign the treaty that held american forces liable for international war crimes. I think he was in office for about 1 month. 9/11 hadn't happened yet and when i read that i knew we were going to go to war. I had a hunch it was going to be Iran.
Bush has spent about 90% of his energy on fixing other nations policies and about 10% on our own.. I really dont agree with that..

janefonda was great in barberella IMO

[RIJIMMY]

Im staying out of this one.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Im staying out of this one.

Me too....Im just enjoying some of the bonehead comments im seeing from the well known lefties on here. Its quite funny yet so sad in many ways

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Me too....Im just enjoying some of the bonehead comments im seeing from the well known lefties on here. Its quite funny yet so sad in many ways

dont worry. i've heard some real classics from you too

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by spence

That's simply not true. The Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions detail treament of prisoners who don't have POW status. The US Army's field manual even recognizes protections for non-POW's "engaged in hostile or belligerent conduct."

Perhaps even more significant was the recent US Supreme court ruling that "United States courts have jurisdiction to consider challenges to the legality of the detention of foreign nationals captured abroad in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at Guantánamo Bay."

-spence

O.K., I'm going to have to look up those two treaties. The U.S. army field manual is just that, a manual, no force of law and can be changed at the pentagon's whim. As far as the court rulings go, notice that they didn't say that the Consitution applied, only that the detainees needed to have some sort of hearing. In fact that decision proves my point about the consitution not applying outside the U.S. Do you think the courts would allow a hearing before a military tribunal to pass for justice, inside the U.S. ?

[Nebe]

boy it wouls really suck if you were innocent wouldnt it???

[Homerun04]

janefonda was great in barberella IMO

Eben is the man....always get's us all back on track in our threads.

Where does "common sense" play into this arguement? Geneva Convention or not....who cares? Here are the FACTS:

1. These terrorrists (radical Islamists, Muslins, and Al-Quaeda) are NOT a recognized nation. They come from many countries, and only share one thing in common -- their radical interpretation of their religion makes them beleive the West are the evil infidels, and they beleive they have a moral obligation to kill all Westerners.
2. They are training an Army of people every day to kill Americans.
3. They have declared war on America -- many, many times.
4. They have attacked America a number of times (embassies, 9/11, cruise ships - Achillie Lauro (sp?), etc).
5. They have killed thousands of Americans.
6. They will not stop until either they are all dead or we are all dead - IN THEIR OWN WORDS.

So, wouldn't common sense dictate that we do whatever we can to win this war now, and debate the "philosophies" of what we did after the war? If we do it the other way around, we might not be alive later on to have any discussions. I never understood the Geneva Convention -- or any conventions that try to put "rules" around wars. In reality who in their right minds would care about "good decurum" when they are about to be killed and wiped off the face of the earth? If you knew you where about to be killed, would you not prevent it because you thought you might be violating some convention?

Frankly, war is hell -- and IMO there are no rules in hell. Those of us looking to apply "rules" and "good behavior" during war time are destined to loose in war. IMO, we should be as brutal to them as they are to us. And once we eradicate them, then we can go back to being "nicey-nice". As for our Founding Father's, they rounded up many Torries on a regular basis without cause. The key to victory is not in defeating your enemy but it is in defeating your enemy's strategy (Tsun Tsu - The Art of War).

Sure, some might say that acting as brutal as them would make us as evil as they are, but I disagree. And here is the difference: We at least have the decency to go back to being civilized people after war, and act like barbarians only during war time. These terrorist people would still be looking for the next group of people to kill.

I sometimes think the people who are looking to treat everyone "fairly" are making the mistake of projecting our values onto everyone else -- so I ask, would they treat our prisoners according to the Geneva Convention? I don't think so. And as for me, I will always side with the men and women who have died -- and are fighting today -- for my freedom and the freedom, protection and safety of my children. Let's stop hamstringing our military - let them do their job. It would be done quicker, and ultimately a lot less lives would be lost on both sides of the ledger.

Do I wish we lived in a world where everyone obeyed International Laws and acted according to generally accepted rules of decency? Sure I do. But unfortunately we don't.

[likwid]

i do not support OBL's views, I'm just repeating what I read:

HR: I've read OBL's open letter to the US a half dozen times.
In it he says he wants us to leave the middle east and israel to stop killing palestinians and he'll stop.

In it he also says if we do not meet his conditions he'll continue ordering attacks on the US.

But yes, it also says he thinks we're psychotic and women blahblahblahblah all his psycho religiousbabble is nuts.

So blah, like I said, it all sucks.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Homerun04]

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

So then let's do it and end it all sooner rather then later, IMO.

[likwid]

Then millions of innocents die because of a few.
Its all retarded.
All of it just makes me sad.

But I do especially hate one thing...

The media.

[Homerun04]

Then millions of innocents die because of a few.

Anyone who would let terrorist scum live and train in their country are not "innocent" people IMO. That is something we all need to come to grips with, and in my judgement, something that no one wants to address. Iraq needs to get their borders in control and start preventing terrorists from entering their country. If they can't do this, then they are going to pay the price of American bombs. Nothing would make the US happier then to have secure borders around every Middle East country so this way we can start holding the governments of these countries responsible for the actions of their citizens.

Think of the pshychology....if you were an Iraqi living in Iraq your entire life, and you were oppressed your entire life, and if you hated your government all these years, and then the USA comes in and frees you -- wouldn't you use the very first opportunity you had to get the HELL OUT OF THERE.

Why aren't more people leaving Iraq now that it is free? IMO it is because while most Iraqis detested Saddam they still think the West are evil infidels. So are they innocent? I don't know.

[shortwavez]

its just so unfortunate that our world has come to all this...my heart and prayers go out to all those in london.

[Homerun04]

Originally Posted by shortwavez

its just so unfortunate that our world has come to all this...

I think - for me - a better word then "unfortunate" is "shame" -- because we, as a species, made CONSCIENCE decisions to make this world the way it is. "Unfortunate" (to me) by definition implies a certain amount of luck, or randomness, or "fortune".

Our world is f****d up by design because governmental egos made it so -- and that is a shame. Why don't our governments do what they are supposed to do and make this world a better place?

But then again, one man's (or government's) definition of better, and another man's (or government's) definition of better can be radically different (e.g. Mr. Bush vs. Mr. Heussein).

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

Why don't our governments do what they are supposed to do and make this world a better place?

Profits.... its all about profits.

[Homerun04]

Profits.... its all about profits.

[Nebe]

and if anyone doesnt believe me, look into what bush thinks about global warming and the G-8 convention. Profits win over saving our planets sensitive ecosystems.

[Homerun04]

Profits.... its all about profits.

So, in your opinion, is Capitalism ultimately evil because it makes us change our priorities so that we eventually all become money-centric?

[Nebe]

ummm capatilism is money-centric.

Is it evil??? that all depends who is making the money

[Skip N]

Heres the bottom line.....These Muslim extremists are cold blooded murders and we must wipe them all out somehow. Given the chance they would gladly come into my house and yours and take a knife to you and your kids throats and not feel any remorse as they watch you die. We;ve seen this first hand and its %$%$%$%$ing sick. this is what we are dealing with here. We CANNOT talk to these people and work something out, pulling out of Iraq and the entire middle east will not stop anything. They want us ALL dead. Why some of you people dont get this is beyond me. And why you dont want to do anything about these people is even more sickening. Oh just do what OBL wants and he will leave us alone....Not a friggen chance idiots. These are the Nazis of this time. Thats the best way to put it.They ALL must be killed and thats final. If you want to sit back and try and make excuses for why they hate us go right ahead.....you CANNOT justify what these %$%$%$%$ers are doing to us and the good people of London and Spain and elsewere. Some of you people have more hatred for W than you do for the terrosits who will come into your house and slice your childs throat. Wake up people and get a friggen clue as to what kind of people we are dealing with here.

[spence]

Who you gonna kill there Skippy...1.2 Billion People?

It's a bit more complicated that that

-spence

[beachwalker]

Originally Posted by likwid

Then millions of innocents die because of a few.
Its all retarded.
All of it just makes me sad.

But I do especially hate one thing...

The media.

yep


and you are correct as well spence. come on now skippy, a.k.a. adolf give us a break

[afterhours]

back to the original thread. it can happen here with the large populace of muslims in detroit and brooklynn there may be a few with terrorist ties.
i beleive that a terrorist is a someone who targets innocent civilian populations and inflicts death and destruction on such to promote their cause. anyone who does so should be identified and destroyed no questions asked. this should be done to benifit ALL of mankind ALL over the world.

[beachwalker]

Originally Posted by afterhours

back to the original thread. it can happen here with the large populace of muslims in detroit and brooklynn there may be a few with terrorist ties.
i beleive that a terrorist is a someone who targets innocent civilian populations and inflicts death and destruction on such to promote their cause. anyone who does so should be identified and destroyed no questions asked. this should be done to benifit ALL of mankind ALL over the world.

like. oh wow dude


that's so heavy.....


wake up and live... it's a dangerous world... it can happen here but maybe it will happen there ? I don't know. I like that.... "I don't know"....

[beachwalker]

but I am not saying your wrong afterhours

just goofing on the severity of the statement....

[afterhours]

oooooohhh eeexcuuuseee me bw, did'nt mean to insult your intellect. just stating my thoughts as simple as they may be. bet you don't know a lot- no i'm wrong you know it all.