Hey Zeno

[PNG]

Why do you expect an apology, explanation or otherwise?

I expected one because you said there would be one coming in the Nov issue. I was honestly curious to read their stand, that is all. That simple.

I did read the Zeno article and enjoyed it, gave me a tingle even.

I do not agree with the no needle yes needle part becuase he clearly adds a disclaimer.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Flap. I thought someone said that there would be a response by the OTW editors in the next issue.
Dont shoot me, I'm just saying I know I read that out here from someone.

I thought the same thing was written as well Flap?

[Karl F]

Why?
Well, oh mature one, this, from another thread regarding this well worn subject...

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Watch for the editorial in November. I have a feeling this will all be addressed in that format, where each and every subscriber, consumer and casual reader at the dentist's office can evalute the magazines response. Then again, it goes back to the authors responsibility, IMHO,to think of circumstances that my likely develop if he does submit the piece for publication. The guys at the mag are all great guys and my friends. Are they die hard surfcasters, offshore fishermen or rabid, tongue dragging red-eyed Striper men. No. They love to fish, and they had an opportunity to open up a venue so that nutz like myself and others could share with the other nutz what when and how. Where exactly is verboten. Of course there has always been and there will always be the unwriiten code among the Striper Brethren against revealing the most secret details. Myself I have been threatened with bodily harm, threatening notes,damage to my vehicle and slander and lost friendships. I don't believe that I give away the farm as the article in question did. I have people comment on giving too much info in how and why even when I intentionally leave out the where. Like the late great Al Rienfelder once said when asked, after telling in detail the how and why, the where question, "even the CIA doesn't have that kind of information". I live that way and write that way. I might mention Truro or Wellfleet or be a little more specific by stating Balston or some such beach but if you are a really educated surfcaster you know Balston is one., a big place and two., bass usually crowd into the smallest holes at only certain points in the tide. I fished last night from 9 to midnight, I caaght quite a few fish on Needles, where? Don't ask I won't tell you.

I don't post on S-S.COM anymore because Frank disses the magazine because thery would not entertain anymore of his oft time re-hashed adventures and laurel sitting. He of all people is throwing jibes in threads like "Googan Writers" and NEBE's thread on the aforementioned article. He's retired, he can make money off of it and he does. Well that's okay but don't throw stones. Does anyone here remember when "Striper Hotspots" first printing came out that some spots were named incorrectly? Also a lot of these spots were never even fished by Daignault. Of all the people to comment he has a lot of nerve. Read twenty years on the Cape and you will be told everything you need to know about when, where and how to fish the backbeach. All while he bemoans the fact you cannot trust people to keep thier mouths shut. But it was over for him so why not tell all and make a little cake on the side from it. Trouble is it wasn't and still isn't over for a lot of guys. The New Yorkers he fished with still come to P-Town for the most part, at least those who are still alive. He actively bashes people who fish from boats yet his mentor and one of the most prolific writers in the Striper game, Frank Woolner, knew and told anyone that would listen that even though he thought surfcasting was the most enjoyable and rewarding way to catch stripers a really good bassman had to be proficient in all of the arts. Trolling, jigging, live bait, fly fishing in order to be considered really good in the Striper world. He told me that to my face when I was a teenager and it is the way I live my striper life. Too many double standards these days. Dammed if you do damned if you don't. Now, enough of this crap and let's get on with the important stuff. What was done is done and I am sure a lesson was learned. End of story. Next!

I would have shortened it, but did not want to be accused of editing "your" comment.

But honest to god, that is the only reason, why I thought there might be something there, other than that, I know that magazines and writers, will sell us down the river................................

I will hush my juvenile mouth now, and be done with this... and let you mature folk handle this, while I grow up

Flapper... sometimes I wonder 'bout ya

[Slipknot]

OK now can we get back to the original thread here about the Zeno article?
Flap had a feeling is all, the mag. didn't respond, that's it, over.
go fish

[Zeno]

Thanks for your praise and criticism too.As Joe eloquently posted already ,most of us pen few pieces a year and if our writing "skills" leave a lot to be desired .......That's understandable too ,considering my "real" job as a construction worker don't exactly offer many opportunity to expand my writing skills.It does broaden my vocabulary with words like @#%^&** and !&*!#*! but alas I cant use the darn things in family publication .Another reason I don't even attempt to do more writing is that my one finger gets really tired after few sentences.Now excuse me while I ice the darn thing
Kidding aside , I do enjoy the idea that something I wrote entertain you ,even if its for a moment.

[Zeno]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Its not too bad,. I just didn't like it. I'll fish Montauk, but his article will have nothing to do with it. Perhaps its not fair to be critcial without being more specific.
Here what I would have like to have seen.

- The typical "fall" season for Mntk, for example , fsih migrate in Sept and stay until Dec. Some basic idea of when the fishing picks up and when it ends.
- The lure talk was insulting, he says that Mntk regulars would never throw a needlefish becasue of the rocky condicitons....HUH? I throw heavy neeldefish at some of the most rocky places in RI, needlefish are top water lures, even when retrieved slowly. Then later in the article he mnetions that thee do throw needles when the sand eels move in, but reccomends a slow sinker.
Then he says to throw buck tail jigs...huh? Inconsistent concepts

- could have added more history about the place

I am not trying to be a jerk, I really did not like his style, seemed lke an 8th grade book report. Didnt win me over.

I am sorry that you find it unreadable and believe me I find your criticism refreshing and helpful however you might get the facts strait before you put them on line as things gets twisted fairly quickly in the internet vacuum.
-I apologize that you found lure talk "insulting" but I re-read and article five times and I cant find it anywhere were I said that Montauk regular would never throw a needlefish because of rocky conditions.What I did say was that needlefish are very productive when sand eel reappear and that slower sinking needles are preferred than heavy sinkers because of shallow waters.Please don't invent what's not in there to suit your agenda ,whatever that might be.
-bucktails were mentioned as a daytime top produces,nothing to do with needles,again ,you are taking too much of a liberty to twist the article .

I do find your comments refreshing .Now excuse me while I reach for my Preparation H again. Its going to be a loooong day.........darn nor'easters

[vineyardblues]

I just read OTW and liked all of it, the Zeno report Ask Pops, (bleeding a striper!)the salmon river report, all of it.
The write up on the fishing plugs was also very interesting. ><>
Ok so they lost me on the crappies I will save that one for the dead of winter..lol
Let's all be nice

VB

[Slingah]

I love getting and reading OTW...not a big fan of the mentioning of some of my favorite haunts...but what the hay....its a fishing mag...thats in it to sell mags and make money.
I'm really getting sick of all the crap on this site....I wish I could stop looking...but Im addicted.....I might ween myself off....maybe I'll start working out... with all the time Ill save I could get in good shape
All this bullcrap takes the fun out of it...I started looking here because I love fishing for striped bass....in some way it has polluted it now. Dont get me wrong I have learned from this place and met some great people....but the bickering is getting old.


Nice read Zeno...I like it....made me want to take a road trip...and gave me something to start off with. Reading articles like yours is what it all about for me....getting the juices flowing......again, good job. Fishing is my escape...doing it, and reading about it.

[riverrat2]

You da man slingah.

[Chris in Mass]

Originally Posted by tynan19

Zeno had a good little article in this past weeks Fisherman also. Written for Mtk but can be applied everywhere. Nice work Z.

Major s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g up about to take place - may not be suitable for all ages: I was wondering if they were talking about the same guy who wrote "A Whitewater Epiphany" in this week's Fisherman. I had to double check. Before seeing this thread, I read that article like 5 times (sorry - only been at this for 4 years). I was in these conditions a few times this season - fins bustin certain portions of the foam - plenty of bait. - etc. Couldn't sleep the other night thinking what I would have done differently to get more consistent hookups. Great article, humble style. Somebody was asking in another thread what to do with all your fishing mags when your done with them - this one's a keeper - I'll be looking for the next Zeno article!

[TheRattBoy]

Z's artical was the best one in this issue , I read it and threw the magazine away , it's so thin without the "Insiders" and I don't care about boat stuff...Hopefully they'll do another "wood" issue , That's what I like the most, and I don't think i'm alone on that.

[Bliz]

Cudo's to the OTW staff on Troublemaker Lures...

I enjoyed seeing Steve Fransescon's Surfster writeup.

It is nice to see someone get the recognition that he deserves in pursuit of his passion in building one of the finest quality and best producing wooden lures out there on the market today...

IMO, Fransescon will go down as one of the legendary plug builders of his day.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Karl F

Why?
Well, oh mature one, this, from another thread regarding this well worn subject...



I would have shortened it, but did not want to be accused of editing "your" comment.

But honest to god, that is the only reason, why I thought there might be something there, other than that, I know that magazines and writers, will sell us down the river................................

I will hush my juvenile mouth now, and be done with this... and let you mature folk handle this, while I grow up

Flapper... sometimes I wonder 'bout ya

Wonder all you want but read this the right way which you haven't. I had a feeling they would, they didn't, they don't have to I thought they should have addressed it somehow but playing the Devil's advocate, they don't have to and that's the point I am trying to make. OTW isn't a club or an organization it's a business. In the first paragraph of my original post I tried to explain that to you all IMHO. Was it that hard to see that? I would have put something in but I don't run the mag and as far as they are concerned they don't owe anybody anything and that's what I stated. I tried to convey this from there point of view in the last post. Sell you down the river Karl? That I don't understand. What, in your opinion should a magazine publish for articles? Of course the object of having the magazine is to make money. Would you go through all the effort not to. It's a business for Christ sake. Peoples livelihoods depend on it's sales. It's not my business or yours nor do you have, or I have any say in it. They say it's your magazine but that doesn't mean it litterally is, it covers your fishing that's all. I apologize for the grow up stuff but man all this internet chatter is like a bunch of teenage girls at lunch. More people have learned of this from these sites than the mag article itself. I would have addressed it but the cold hard facts are that they don't have to and I am not part of the management just a sorry assed writer who rues the day he ever started and wishes to God the internet was never invented. This is my last post. I cannot take the crap anymore. I think OTW is a great publication, one that is sorely needed in the Northeast. SWS is coming back around as well and that's a good thing too. You are all a bunch of good guys/gals but this is too stressful for me. Dammed if you do dammed if you don't. See you round some time, maybe.

[RIJIMMY]

No agenda Zeno, just my first response to Nebes post. I did not read it 5 times, just once quickly. If everyone on the net checked their facts before posting the net would be void of any content. What you are writing worked for most, just did not do it for me. Everyone views things with bias and opinions, I am a cynical bastard and view most things like that. I clued into the needle items and may have missed your point.
No hard feelings, just my opinion.

Heres a little story for ya, besides fishing my passion is jazz. I have been playing for over 25 years, one day I was was working on a complicated jazz melody, I literally spent 5 hours playing a 2 second piece over and over. When I finally had it down, I asked my wife to listen, she did and looked at me and nodded. When she walked away I absent mindedly strummed a few chords , basic beginner guitar stuff. She turns around and says "Now that sounds good!" I wanted to puke.
The moral is, some people get it, some dont, dont worry about it.

[Nebe]

Why is everyone so grumpy???

[Joe]

I can't stand you Nebe.....
Too bad Flap quit - I was just starting to like him.
Zeno - I just read your story. Not bad at all - nice pix too.

[JoeP]

I thought Zeno's article was an all around great summary of fishing MTK - and even "rock-fishing" in general. If I ever go to MTK I'll read it again.

Another reason I disagree about tossing (or torching in Eben's case ) old magazines. You never know when you may want to reference an old article. Like keeping an archive of fishing info...

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Joe

I can't stand you Nebe.....

Foodcat loves me

[tattoobob]

I read the article this morning and got alot out of it I liked the smile on the guys face as he puts away a 30 pounder. who wants to go this weekend?
I also liked the warning about getting mugged for your spot.

[kippy]

It was a great article but I don't think I would enjoy being mugged like that. I bet BM would love fishing in close quarters with the New Yawkers..

[Pete F.]

I liked the Montauk article and since I'm planning a trip there next month it may help a little. But I'm not skishing. oke:
There were two spots in that issue that they "burnt" although if you hav'nt heard of Montauk and the Salmon River i'm not sure you are a fisherman. At neither of those spots are parking or access a problem. Mugging, I think is how a lot of fishing is in NY/NJ. It usually is cause there are fish there, but that does'nt mean they are all fishermen. I remember on the Salmon River walking up thru a run and one guy telling me there were no fish in the river, 5 feet in front of him there was a 25 pound king, he could'nt see it. Cast in unison now boys.

I kinda thought the editorial did speak to the surfcasters concerns when they said that 83% of there subscribers have a boat or have access to one, in other words this is how much we care about you. I also looked thru the adds to see how many are related to surfcasting, umm...maybe smackit lures.
I often wonder how much of a market there is for a pure shore fishing mag, I do not see much advertising support available for one.

[Krispy]

This is one sport that would be better off without the media, the mags or the TV shows.
Let the weekenders enjoy theirs and the diehards keep theirs.
Anyone can invest as much of themselves as they want into surfcasting, and reap the rewards of their work. Part of it is finding the spots, who's getting what where, migration, tackle shops, sharpies, etc...
Or beach chairs, beers, kids, umbrellas, bonfires... whatever you want it to be, you can make of it.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by Krispy

This is one sport that would be better off without the media, the mags or the TV shows.
Let the weekenders enjoy theirs and the diehards keep theirs.
Anyone can invest as much of themselves as they want into surfcasting, and reap the rewards of their work. Part of it is finding the spots, who's getting what where, migration, tackle shops, sharpies, etc...
Or beach chairs, beers, kids, umbrellas, bonfires... whatever you want it to be, you can make of it.

[wader-dad]

I consider myself a surfcaster even though I don't get out as much as I would like. I am involved in what I consider a great surfcasting club and spend too much time looking on this site when I am supposed be working. What I am looking for in articles in OTW or other publications is to get the feeling of anticipation that I get when I close my car door and start walking in my waders to the surf. I am looking to get " horsed up " for fishing as Joe Lyons stated above. Flaptail's articles do it. I fish from the surf because I feel a sense of excitement and that I am doing something that makes me feel good inside when I am doing it, not because I have to catch. I like to read something or hear a guy talk that has enthusiasm for the sport- to feel that we share a common bond. I think it is amazing to talk to a guy that has been fishing 100 nights for 30 years and he still has the juice for it. Zeno's article was good for me because I grew up on Long Island and when I was 14, my father booked a charter boat for stripers out of Montauk. It was 1968. A noreaster blew out the trip and my father took me down to the Montauk lighthouse to show me the surf and why the boats could not get out of the inlet. Articles do not have to be literary workd of art or the Old Man and the Sea, but if they give me some sense of the bond we share and the wonder of the caster at the edge of the unknowable sea- then I am into it.

PS: Flaptail please come back.

[Zeno]

I appreciate the opinions of all ,thank you.It is refreshing to actually get a spoken feedback instead of finding flat tires on occasion
Just busting.No ,it wont win a Pulitzer prize ,heck ,my elementary teacher would probably flunk it (then again she only speaks Croatian) but that's not the point.
Here is the point of writing ,at least for me :

Originally Posted by Chris in Mass

Major s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g up about to take place - may not be suitable for all ages: I was wondering if they were talking about the same guy who wrote "A Whitewater Epiphany" in this week's Fisherman. I had to double check. Before seeing this thread, I read that article like 5 times (sorry - only been at this for 4 years). I was in these conditions a few times this season - fins busting certain portions of the foam - plenty of bait. - etc. Couldn't sleep the other night thinking what I would have done differently to get more consistent hookups. Great article, humble style. Somebody was asking in another thread what to do with all your fishing mags when your done with them - this one's a keeper - I'll be looking for the next Zeno article!

Never mind the s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g up part.Something I wrote has actually made someone reconsider their strategy or expand their horizons.Isn't that what writing is all about ,in print and on the net? Helping each other without putting them onto the rock itself ?It is for me.Lord knows I spend more in ink to edit my mistake than they pay me to write
Cause when you think about ,you can use the knowledge and technique you learn by reading at your favorite hole.
No need for you to come over to mine

[Zeno]

BTW
If i can figure out how to post a picture i would show you some real Montauk "mugging"

[JHABS]

AHHHHHHHH a picture is worth a 1000 words, Been there , Seen it , No THANKS. They even cast over you...............

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Zeno

BTW
If i can figure out how to post a picture i would show you some real Montauk "mugging"

I don't think you could pay me to fish in that crowded mess...

[Vermonter]

My issue finally showed. Good article Zeno, informative and thorough for those of us who have never been, and thanks for posting that last photo, the pics in the article already had me thinking that Montauk was too crowded for me, the last photo convinced me.

[chris L]

Originally Posted by JHABS

AHHHHHHHH a picture is worth a 1000 words, Been there , Seen it , No THANKS. They even cast over you...............

3 or 4 high on the wall ! I go south