America spying on terrorists without court approval

[Pete_G]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4536838.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/...nsa/index.html

Now, I'm admittedly FAR more anti-big brother then most people and this sort of thing really ticks me off. Eavesdropping on American citizens without court approval basically makes me really uncomfortable with where this country is going and makes me start yelling about regime change through any means possible. But some of the people being looked into probably aren't American citizens, they just happen to be within our borders. Do they deserve the same rights and protections we have as American citizens? If it was a time sensitive issue would the court really take that long to give clearance to spying on someone suspected of having ties to Al Queda, citizen or not? We have a court specifically for this sort of thing, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Court. Why not use it?

Not taking sides on this one, (yet) just opening it up for discussion.

[spence]

Bush has two lines of defense.

The first is, so what?

The second is that the proper members of Congress have been informed of what's going on.

Problem is, accoring to Sen. Feingold, nobody in Congress new about the wiretaps.

Even worse is that the NSA already had authority to perform these wiretaps under current law as long as they filed for a warrant within 72 hours. They just never did...

So it appears that once again, Bush is full of horse hockey and is attempting to obfuscate the facts so John Q Public gets confused and tunes out.

This is looking like something to get pissed about.

-spence

[striperman36]

We live in an increasingly threatened society. Threatened by idealists of various persuasions that will go to any extreme to undermine it for their own version of reality.
Where do you think we should draw the line in allowing the 1st amendment to apply?

[spence]

The line should be drawn at the law.

After 9/11 Bush would have been granted just about anything he asked for.

The moment we sacrifice the Constitution to the illusion of safety, we have lost much to the phantom of terror.

-spence

[afterhours]

we've also lost much to the REALITY of terror. btw-loved bushs first line of defense

[Skip N]

If this leads to rounding up and catching the terroists in this country i dont have an issue with it. I have nothing to hide so i could care less. Its not like they are going after me or joe average. they are going after suspected terroists to try and defend us from the radicals who want to kill us. I admit i dont know all the details to this topic, but if this leads to stopping another 9/11 or other terroist plots do it.

Bottom line for me is i have nothing to hide so why should i be worried. Its the radicals they are targeting not me so do what it takes to keep my family safe.

[Raven]

Do they deserve the same rights and protections we have as American citizens?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well if they dont.....because they are not american citizens.......
then "we the people ->as Americans should be allowed more consideration......because of the circumstance...

• "when" in the interest of national security something thats not related at all to terrorism is discovered......OTHERWIZE its just an convient excuse to spy on us AMERICANS... hell they can read the words on a dime from
• a satelite over head.... drive by and read your voice vibrations off of your window glass....view the contents of your house with infa red,
• track you to within ten feet by your cell phone number
• and on and on and on....it goes
  
• whats next? they're gonna decide what we should believe.
• it is time to take a stand and not just be silent,,,
• have you heard even one damn puplic official say
• make sure to have a digital camera to take their picture
• has any kid in america been told this when encountering a bad guy....no although some are using their cell phones...
• America can do allot MORE than what their being allowed to...
• i'll never forget 9-11
• but i shall also never forget a little publisized story about this
• scumbag that was protesting the display of an american flag post 9-11 that was visable from his apartment.....and nobody
• thought... well GEE this sucker MUST be a bad guy....
• and later on it was discovered that he was indeed a bad guy.
• the lack of conectivity of all the dots....needs rapid improovement and i think the American people can do as good a job as the intelligence community if given half a chance or at least be contributers of clues and information.
• just look at the sucess rate for america's most wanted and the lost kid electronic billboard which gets the whole american public INVOLVED and it should be EXACTLY the same for terrorism if not more so considering the consequences in both lives lost in 9-11 and the financial cost to america for not having been able to stop it in the first place.

[Nebe]

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security- Benjamin Franklin

[Raven]

the unknown Nebe.....

[lurch]

The founding fathers would leave this country if they were living here today and are currently rolling in their graves.

We have flaws but our flaws are less than other countries and we are the best country by on this planet far!

There is a fine line on spying on people in this country. As far as I am concerned it would take just a few mins to contact a judge for a wire tap approval and that judge will (hopefully) be able to make the right decision if there is probable cause for the wire tap.

The funny thing is that the 911 commision was bitching at the govt saying that they did not do enough "information gathering" to prevent the events of 911.

I dont like the fact that the members of congress are blaming this on bush as they were the ones who passed the patriot act laws, it is not about protecting the citizens but covering the members of congress asses and how they can line their pockets.

[Raven]

you triggered a memory.... someting like the mixer ball wrattling around in a almost empty spray paint can..... in my mind....this quote from the movie "the fugitive " Staring tommy lee jones and harrison ford.... Tommy Lee JONES yells: "i wanna Know what he had for breakfast "

[stripersnipr]

Can you really win a war on terrorism by following rules the enemy scoffs at?

[lurch]

Originally Posted by Raven

you triggered a memory.... someting like the mixer ball wrattling around in a almost empty spray paint can..... in my mind....this quote from the movie "the fugitive " Staring tommy lee jones and harrison ford.... Tommy Lee JONES yells: "i wanna Know what he had for breakfast "

I fell asleep on the living room floor last night waking up with a stiff neck and achy back so I was a little grumpy when I woke up.

[JohnR]

There is a fine line but a concrete line on "who" is allowed to surveil "who". The CIA and the NSA are allowed to conduct surveilance (and the CIA, operations) on foreign countries. The FBI has responsibility to conduct actions within the US, and provided all done within the context of the law. The NSA will periodically assist the FBI in technical means and and provide personnel as members of a FBI operation. The FBI is a law driven organization and executes it's mission "legaly" as its members really consider themselves federal Law Enforcement Officers so they are given a mission to do, they understand the legal portion, and they execute it. The NSA people are often proffesional geeks, do what they are told, have certain legal constraints to operate in, but they are not Law Enforcement Officers or have that mentality. Certainly the field people are given a mission and told to execute it - but while aware of what they can and can't do - they are not law enforcement officers.

This has worked - properly for the most part - for decades.

I'm uncomfortable to see that changed. But if these actions were being carried out with the court that they are legally supposed to, I'd feel a lot better....

The NSA like the CIA and FBI are staffed by real American people. People that honor this country and its ideals just like those who are in the military. They are not necessarily like the people depicted in movies and books, they are not evil, bent on circumventing the law and establishing world dominance with "sharks with frickin' laser beams" but real people, real Americans. Now what happens with the data they collect and what decisions are made with that data by politicians - THAT is the scary part

[Backbeach Jake]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Can you really win a war on terrorism by following rules the enemy scoffs at?

My .02 : Those rules are what makes America America. Those rules are why they hate us. Change them, throw out or suspend our Constitutional Rights, and we aren't us any more. We are something or someone else, and the bad guys win. Our written guarantees are gone and they're still here. Making us change slowly, but surely makes us go away. We win the war on terrorism by standing our ground and making THEM change to a free society. How? by persuasion and Example. The more freedom we lose, the closer we come to them. They figured it out.

[stripersnipr]

After fully reading the details of this issue it appears that standard probable cause rules apply to these eavesdropping situations. I would compare it to being pulled over by police and your car reeks of pot. Probable cause at that point exists and you will be "legally" searched. If you are known to converse or communicate with individuals or groups with terrorist ties probable cause will exist and wiretaps may be implemented. I'm not sure if this is infringing on our civil rights anymore than already existing standards of search and seizure.

[Swimmer]

I understand where Pete G and the Raven are coming from, but after all congress was briefed 12 times on who, what, when, and where. The people who want to unseat Bush Jr. just did not or forgot to attend those meetings. We have so many safeguards in place such as big mouth news reporters, print or electronic, who bribe pentagon employees in one way or another and who are trying to curry favor with thier editors, NOT US, by getting classified documents leaked and printed in the newspaper or voiced on a television broadcast. Let be serious here for a moment, who here actually though this never took place? As far as do these person who may not be citizens deserve all the same rights as us, maybe, maybe not. The war on terrorists and terror can and is an extraordinarily broad and all encompassing activity sometimes inocents will get swept up in a good goverment employees zeal. If these same poeple were as active and successfull on September 10, 2001 and captured or killed Mr. Atta and his associates and it becoame public that the success the government had in taking out Atta was based on wiretap evidence, would anyone here complain about that surveillance now. I mean Mr. Atta was living here if only for a short period of time so he would have those same inalienable rights as us, no. We will never know how many incidents of violence have been averted by wiretaps or surveillance. The only time I have found that anyone really cares is when it becomes public. Out of sight out of mind.

[Backbeach Jake]

I read it the same way. The difference is that the Legislative Branch and the Administrative Branch left the Judicial Branch out. It's legal IF you go to the Court and tell them. Otherwise it's not legal. This is how we protect ourselves from, well, ourselves. out of sight out of mind? Yes, of course, that's the master plan.

[Saltheart]

Every right we lose because we fear terrorists is a victory for the terrorists. Guard your rights. Someday you will have none left.

[Backbeach Jake]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Every right we lose because we fear terrorists is a victory for the terrorists. Guard your rights. Someday you will have none left.

Exactly!

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Every right we lose because we fear terrorists is a victory for the terrorists. Guard your rights. Someday you will have none left.

True, But how can people be pissed that we are spying on suspected terroists? They are not spying on you and me. They are spying on the scumbags who may be plotting to kill my family and yours next. The job of the government is propect its people, sounds like they are doing whatever they can to do so. Of course the media makes it sound like they are spying on anyone and everyone when in fact that is false. They are spying on people with suspected ties to terroism for crying out loud.

[spence]

The media never said that Skip.

The issue is, is it ok for the President to break the law just because they think it's for the good of the American people?

-spence

[MoroneSaxatilis]

And by the way, what makes you think that "They" are not spying on you and I? For all we know, the FBI, NSA or whomever, have hardware and software that comb the net with filters and any time keywords such as "President", "terrorist", or "bomb" are posted on some message board (such as this one) the "geeks" that John mentioned could very well be reading Your post, this post, or whatever post. If someone posts something that "They" deem as suspicious, or subversive, or "unpatriotic", do "They" then take the next step and begin tapping YOUR or MY emails and telephone conversations without obtaining a warrent ahead of time?
Just a thought...

[Skip N]

"The issue is, is it ok for the President to break the law just because they think it's for the good of the American people?"

Ok if thats the big question then i'm still ok with it. Like i said in my previous posts they are doing this to protect us from terroism, They are not doing this to pry into our lives. The only people this will affect are suspected terroists. What if this leads to preventing attacks in the U.S and abroad? How the hell can anyone be against that? And its obvious the intensions of this are to protect the American people. If you have to break the law to protect my family from scumbags go right ahead i'm all for it. Terroists should be the only ones nervous with this.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by MoroneSaxatilis

And by the way, what makes you think that "They" are not spying on you and I? For all we know, the FBI, NSA or whomever, have hardware and software that comb the net with filters and any time keywords such as "President", "terrorist", or "bomb" are posted on some message board (such as this one) the "geeks" that John mentioned could very well be reading Your post, this post, or whatever post. If someone posts something that "They" deem as suspicious, or subversive, or "unpatriotic", do "They" then take the next step and begin tapping YOUR or MY emails and telephone conversations without obtaining a warrent ahead of time?
Just a thought...

Well unless you have ties to Terroism you have nothing to worry about. If you start posting stuff regarding blowing up buildings and financing terroists then i'd be worried. Until you start doing that you have nothing to worry about so chill out!

[Swimmer]

MoroneSaxitilus,
Those software programs are easy to come by for virtually any subject matter. The government most assuredly filters out the words you just printed and more. My wife has a girlfriend who is quite brilliant and self-taught in computor sciences. She got paid by a company to latch onto and filter out everything that traveled the net about a certain medical subject. I watched it all one night while I was playing cards at her house. It was amazing. The woman and my wife were math majors in the same college. So if she could latch onto what she needed in the medical field any government agency can do the same.

[MoroneSaxatilis]

Skip, I think you're missing my point. I certainly have nothing to hide from law enforcement. I engage in no illegal activity. Does that mean that I want someone reading my private emails or listening to my private phone calls? When some guys have posted on this thread that if we give up too many civil liberties then we become just like the enemy, this is exactly what they're talking about. During the cold war, communist regimes could evesdrop on thier citizens without the permission of any courts or any other authority and without fear of reprisal. So are we to follow that path? Doesn't that, as some have said here, make US just like THEM, thereby allowing Them to "win"?

[Nebe]

What this boils down to is simple. Do you think the president should break the 10 comandments of our constitution without permision from our representitives in congress and the senate?

i dont. Why??? its un-constitutional, and the president should not be above the law ever.. duh...

[The Dad Fisherman]

It isn't just terrorists that they are monitoring, it would be any suspicious communication or any thing that may send up a flag.

if I have a friend overseas that I send e-mails to that could be enough for them to have a look. Is that right? my privacy invaded just because i have a buddy overseas.

One thing that keeps getting mentioned over and over again is that if we start to change because of what THEY do....then THEY win. That is so true, we can't let them change us.

We can't turn into a society of prying, suspicious, paranoid people....no good can come from that.

[Skip N]

"It isn't just terrorists that they are monitoring, it would be any suspicious communication or any thing that may send up a flag."

Um how is that a bad thing? Dont we want them to look into anything that might seem kinda suspicious to help protect us? Or should we not moniter %$%$%$%$ like we did pre 9-11 and wait till we get wacked again? Do what it takes to keep the citizens safe is all i'm saying. If this helps catch one dirtbag and save lifes i think its worth it.