9/11/01

[afterhours]

[QUOTE=spence]

But as for respect for human life, I'd throw on the table the notion that in the name of attacking military targets in Iraq and Afghanistan we've probably killed more innocent women and children that in all al Qaeda attacks combined.

This isn't to say your statement isn't true, but from an Islamic perspective...do we?
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i highly doubt that if combined ALL al qaeda induced casualties worldwide that we could possibily come close. when ever a few civilians are killed over there the left press seems to spout.
as far as respect for human life- yeah right! they're freekin' animals, plain and simple.

[spence]

Originally Posted by afterhours

i highly doubt that if combined ALL al qaeda induced casualties worldwide that we could possibily come close. when ever a few civilians are killed over there the left press seems to spout.

Well, from what I've read between the Pentagon and the human rights groups the range in Iraq along could be anywhere from the low tens of thousands to the high tens of thousands.

Even if you take a conservative approach, it's still probably 3X what al Qaeda has killed in major attacks.

All for a war Bin Laden said we would wage well before the fact was "decided" by the US Government...and that by most accounts was poorly justified and pathetically planned.

Again, the point is from an Islamic perspective, and even a moderate one at that...do we look like we respect human life?

This is important because just as some here use the lack of respect for human life as a motivator to go after terrorists, so do the terrorists use it against us to gain sympathy from the moderate Islamic community.

-spence

[afterhours]

can you please verify those #'s, show sources. no way in the tens of thousands in iraq.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, from what I've read between the Pentagon and the human rights groups the range in Iraq along could be anywhere from the low tens of thousands to the high tens of thousands.

Even if you take a conservative approach, it's still probably 3X what al Qaeda has killed in major attacks.

All for a war Bin Laden said we would wage well before the fact was "decided" by the US Government...and that by most accounts was poorly justified and pathetically planned.

Again, the point is from an Islamic perspective, and even a moderate one at that...do we look like we respect human life?

This is important because just as some here use the lack of respect for human life as a motivator to go after terrorists, so do the terrorists use it against us to gain sympathy from the moderate Islamic community.

-spence

A moderate perspective understands the difference between targeted civilians, and collateral casualties occuring in a miltary operation.

But what specific war are you refering to when you say "poorly justified"? Iraq, Afghanistan or buth?

Bin Laden wasn't making a lucky guess when he said we would go to war after he attacked our country that was a given as it should be.

And exactly who should "decide" when we go to war?

[bobfishgerald]

The body count of civilian casualities in Iraq appears to be approaching 50,000 according to the website Iraq Body Count which uses only deaths reported in news stories with no statistics or estimations involved. So the ratio of innocent killing seems to be tipped in our favor for now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[afterhours]

credible source?? reported in whose news stories?? jazzera(sp)?? the lebanon liberal?? al qaeda weeky?? stories verified by?? muslim digest??

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by bobfishgerald

The body count of civilian casualities in Iraq appears to be approaching 50,000 according to the website Iraq Body Count which uses only deaths reported in news stories with no statistics or estimations involved. So the ratio of innocent killing seems to be tipped in our favor for now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

If I'm not mistaken the vast majority of those civilian casualties were targeted by insurgents and not collateral damage of American actions.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

If I'm not mistaken the vast majority of those civilian casualties were targeted by insurgents and not collateral damage of American actions.

I think that site does track both. While I wouldn't say it's reasonable to blame us for insurgent deaths, which are quite substantial, it is reasonable to say the lack of a post war plan has contributed heavily to the deaths from insurgents and general violence.

As Colin Powell said, you break it you own it.

As for deaths attributed to US action alone, do a google search and you can find various articles. To say that thousands haven't been killed given the massive use of firepower doesn't really make any sense...unless you beleve our smart bombs are a lot smarter than we realize.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

A moderate perspective understands the difference between targeted civilians, and collateral casualties occuring in a miltary operation.

That's the I'm my big comfy couch in New England gonna grill me a 14 ounce steak for dinner line of thinking.

But what specific war are you refering to when you say "poorly justified"? Iraq, Afghanistan or buth?

Iraq.

Bin Laden wasn't making a lucky guess when he said we would go to war after he attacked our country that was a given as it should be.

Well, Bin laden wasn't in Iraq (not sure if this is new to you?), but he did tell the Islamic community that Bush would indeed invade Iraq and humiliate the Iraqi people.

Given that the WMD issue is believed to be a sham worldwide, and that the utter lack of a post war plan has contributed to more Iraqi suffering and violence...

He seems to have built a lot of credibility among the already angered Muslims of the world...in fact invading Iraq how we have has done more to empower his vision for the world than perhaps any other forseeable action the US could have taken.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Karl F

9/11/01---> 5 years later, Osama running loose, mess in Afghanastan, bigger mess in Iraq, and gonna be another mess in Iran, and the rest of the middle east as well.
Americans have not changed there way of life too much, most, (like myself) piss and moan about fuel costs, etc. But, we still work our jobs, buy our groceries, and lead our lives pretty much the same.
And, like Skip said, most have forgotten..

12/07/41----Pearl Harbor Day... US declares war, not only on the attackers, Japan, but also on Germany,and Italy. MUCH SACRIFICE at home as well as those in the military, Automakers suspend production of cars, Major Rationing of everything, most males 35 years old and under, who are not working defense manufacturing jobs are in the service. Japanese Americans, are rounded up and encamped. Women, whose husbands are overseas, are pressed into working in the defense factories.. all major sports are shut down, players pressed into service, hollywood types as well..
4 and 1/2 years later.. WW2 over, Hitler dead, Japan overthrown, Mussolini, gone. Tremendous sacrifice and unity of us and the other countries we allied with...
Woud Not fly today, in this PC world.. ..
Would it? ....

BINGO Karl, i could hear it from here.
My intention for starting the thread was not to start more political rebel rousing on the site, but to express my anger and remind myself,as well as others, of that horrific day planned and executed against our civilian population. We say we remember, but speaking for myself i find it's way in the back of my mind. It shouldn't be, as i lost 2 good young friends in the towers, as some on our site have also lost others.My son in law is an American Airlines pilot who on that morning left Kennedy in his 767 with a full tank at 8 am flying non stop tp LAX.

We sat by phone with my daughter and 2 Grandaughters until 11:30 am until we found out he was safe after rumors that there were still additional hijacked planes in the air.That alone should make me remember everyday, but it doesn't. Then to see once again how they flew those planes into the innocents, ON PURPOSE ,and seeing the horrible way they died, unbelievable, reminded me of what this enemy is all about.


Someone mentioned emotion, well the emotion we felt in the days following 9-11 , which united us in our resolve,should be the same emotion to bring us together now in defeating these crazies. Sacrafices will be needed, maybe even more than were required for WW2, but if we are to defeat them and have our children and grandchildren know what freedom really is, we will have to remember all the time and unite in our efforts.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

That's the I'm my big comfy couch in New England gonna grill me a 14 ounce steak for dinner line of thinking.


-spence

Yeah only rich Republicans differentiate between airliners being flown into skyscrapers/suicide bombings, and collateral military damage.

And you want to stand by the statement that Iraq didn't have WMD? The only sure thiing and I dont even know how sure that is, is that we didn't find WMD when we invaded and Saddam didn't provide proof of their destruction.

Is it true that Saddam funded Terrorism?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Yeah only rich Republicans differentiate between airliners being flown into skyscrapers/suicide bombings, and collateral military damage.

We sure didn't care if the Jihadists used these tactics for our proxy wars in Afghanistan against the USSR did we?

Hell, US taxpayers and the CIA helped fund the activities and internationalize the effort.

And you want to stand by the statement that Iraq didn't have WMD? The only sure thiing and I dont even know how sure that is, is that we didn't find WMD when we invaded and Saddam didn't provide proof of their destruction.

Yes, he didn't have any WMD that represented a threat to us.

I have to cook dinner now, but I'll be happy to elaborate on this later.

Is it true that Saddam funded Terrorism?

Not sure. I've only heard it rumored that Saddam had given money to families of Palestenian suicide bombers. While this isn't an action I admire, it's hardly cause to justify an invasion...

A good part of the middle east funds Palestenian suicide bombers, much of which comes from our gasoline purchaces

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

We sure didn't care if the Jihadists used these tactics for our proxy wars in Afghanistan against the USSR did we?

Hell, US taxpayers and the CIA helped fund the activities and internationalize the effort.


Yes, he didn't have any WMD that represented a threat to us.

I have to cook dinner now, but I'll be happy to elaborate on this later.


Not sure. I've only heard it rumored that Saddam had given money to families of Palestenian suicide bombers. While this isn't an action I admire, it's hardly cause to justify an invasion...

A good part of the middle east funds Palestenian suicide bombers, much of which comes from our gasoline purchaces

-spence

Well I dont know about anyone else but Spence has convinced me. We are just as bad and just as guilty as the Terrorists that want to kill us. It looks we owe the world a big apology.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Well I dont know about anyone else but Spence has convinced me. We are just as bad and just as guilty as the Terrorists that want to kill us. It looks we owe the world a big apology.

Yep, that's about where the Administration's intellectual process keeps breaking down as well.

I guess if we're just prepared to nuke the planet everything will magically fix itsself

What I find ironic...is that 'conservatives' have historically looked towards the past to find solutions to future problems.

Yet the 'neo-conservatives' setting our policy don't appear as to have cracked a history book in their lives.

So what's the 'neo' really stand for? Perhaps it's just a poorly spelled attempt at 'no conservatisim'

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Well said Karl...

9/11 certainly shocked and scared the hell out of us all, but it made me think more about what I believe makes America great. This is where I think we should get our passion to solve our problems...not from emotionally charged lessons of the past. Most people tend to use poor judgement when full of rage...

That's my perspective at least.

-spence

Aren't lessons from the past considered History?.............

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Aren't lessons from the past considered History?.............

Ahhh, now you're just mincing words...

I think you know the difference.

-spence

[Karl F]

My Dad had a saying, I am sure most have heard it or versions of it.
It is more of a philosophy, of his generation, the WW2 guys, they lived it too.
"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."
They pulled together, and fought a common enemy.

Today, we seem more content, to fingerpoint, and fight amongst ourselves. (this thread, is an excellant example)
Abe Lincoln had a saying some 140-145 years ago..
"United We Stand, Divided We Fall"..

I had a History teacher who loved the saying "He who does not learn from History, is doomed to repeat it."
While this could be interpurted that, this is why we continue to war, it could also be, (if you figure how we handled Korea, and Viet Nam), why we continue to not be able to finish what we started.

I tend to doubt the nation as a whole has the dedication, guts and perserverance, that the WW2 generation did, and this, will ultimatley, be our downfall.

anyway.. just my 2 cents, for what it's worth

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Ahhh, now you're just mincing words...

I think you know the difference.

-spence

Both you and the detested Neo-cons are driven by your ideology and perception of what you feel America is and should be regardless of Historys lessons. Especially emotionally charged History. Done.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Karl F

My Dad had a saying, I am sure most have heard it or versions of it.
It is more of a philosophy, of his generation, the WW2 guys, they lived it too.
"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."
They pulled together, and fought a common enemy.

Today, we seem more content, to fingerpoint, and fight amongst ourselves. (this thread, is an excellant example)
Abe Lincoln had a saying some 140-145 years ago..
"United We Stand, Divided We Fall".

Unfortunately Karl, at this time, the enemy is more united in their fight to bring us to our knees then we are in wanting to win. Too many woulda, shoulda couldas and not enough let's find a way to get this job done and win.
btw- your 2 cents make alota sense.

[Bronko]

I knew this argument began to sound familiar. It is incredible how both sides begin to gravitate towards party lines and partisan stances as debates evolve. Michael Barone wrote an article that talks about a number of the issues raised in this thread... from terror....to history...to american perception of our government etc... Read this article then go back and re-read this thread. Intersting stuff.


Our covert enemies
By Michael Barone
Monday, August 21, 2006


In our war against Islamo-fascist terrorism, we face enemies both overt and covert. The overt enemies are, of course, the terrorists themselves. Their motives are clear: They hate our society because of its freedoms and liberties, and want to make us all submit to their totalitarian form of Islam. They are busy trying to wreak harm on us in any way they can. Against them we can fight back, as we did when British authorities arrested the men and women who were plotting to blow up a dozen airliners over the Atlantic.

Our covert enemies are harder to identify, for they live in large numbers within our midst. And in terms of intentions, they are not enemies in the sense that they consciously wish to destroy our society. On the contrary, they enjoy our freedoms and often call for their expansion. But they have also been working, over many years, to undermine faith in our society and confidence in its goodness. These covert enemies are those among our elites who have promoted the ideas labeled as multiculturalism, moral relativism and (the term is Professor Samuel Huntington's) transnationalism.

At the center of their thinking is a notion of moral relativism. No idea is morally superior to another. Hitler had his way, we have ours -- who's to say who is right? No ideas should be "privileged," especially those that have been the guiding forces in the development and improvement of Western civilization. Rich white men have imposed their ideas because of their wealth and through the use of force. Rich white nations imposed their rule on benighted people of color around the world. For this sin of imperialism they must forever be regarded as morally stained and presumptively wrong. Our covert enemies go quickly from the notion that all societies are morally equal to the notion that all societies are morally equal except ours, which is worse.

These are the ideas that have been transmitted over a long generation by the elites who run our universities and our schools, and who dominate our mainstream media. They teach an American history with the good parts left out and the bad parts emphasized. We are taught that some of the Founding Fathers were slaveholders -- and are left ignorant of their proclamations of universal liberties and human rights. We are taught that Japanese-Americans were interned in World War II -- and not that American military forces liberated millions from tyranny. To be sure, the great mass of Americans tend to resist these teachings. By the millions they buy and read serious biographies of the Founders and accounts of the Greatest Generation. But the teachings of our covert enemies have their effect.

Of course, this distorts history. We are taught that American slavery was the most evil institution in human history. But every society in history has had slavery. Only one society set out to and did abolish it. The movement to abolish first the slave trade and then slavery was not started by the reason-guided philosophies of 18th century France. It was started, as Adam Hochschild documents in his admirable book "Bury the Chains," by Quakers and Evangelical Christians in Britain, followed in time by similar men and women in America. The slave trade was ended not by Africans, but by the Royal Navy, with aid from the U.S. Navy even before the Civil War.

Nevertheless, the default assumption of our covert enemies is that in any conflict between the West and the Rest, the West is wrong. That assumption can be rebutted by overwhelming fact: Few argued for the Taliban after Sept. 11. But in our continuing struggles, our covert enemies portray our work in Iraq through the lens of Abu Ghraib and consider Israel's self-defense against Hezbollah as the oppression of virtuous victims by evil men. In World War II, our elites understood that we were the forces of good and that victory was essential. Today, many of our elites subject our military and intelligence actions to fine-tooth-comb analysis and find that they are morally repugnant.

We have always had our covert enemies, but their numbers were few until the 1960s. But then the elite young men who declined to serve in the military during the Vietnam War set out to write a narrative in which they, rather than those who obeyed the call to duty, were the heroes. They have propagated their ideas through the universities, the schools and mainstream media to the point that they are the default assumptions of millions. Our covert enemies don't want the Islamo-fascists to win. But in some corner of their hearts, they would like us to lose.

[Skip N]

Fantastic article above. Couldn't have said it better myself. The truly sad thing is, the author is right on the money regarding the "elite" mentality. Or as i like to call it, the America sucks crowd. No matter what we do, these people will always point out the negative things America has done in the past, and never point out the countless good deeds this country has, and is doing. Why do they hate this country so much, and always feel the need to tear it down and talk negative??

They just can't resist taking a big old %$%$%$%$ on America.

[Skitterpop]

checks and balances yin and yang positive and negative acclaim and criticism good and evil

make a whole..... We do a have a great country but there are problems... most know we have a great country even if they bring up the negatives to discuss. It usually is thrown in as response to blind patriotism.

I know.... we are better off than many countries.... and we are at war relentlessly with terrorism.

We do strive to be better and we should.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

I knew this argument began to sound familiar. It is incredible how both sides begin to gravitate towards party lines and partisan stances as debates evolve. Michael Barone wrote an article that talks about a number of the issues raised in this thread... from terror....to history...to american perception of our government etc... Read this article then go back and re-read this thread. Intersting stuff.

Bronko, you seriously don't buy this jackass do you?

By declaring those among us "the enemy" simply because they hold alternate viewpoints, Barone is declaring himself the enemy of our society. But hey, I respect his freedom to do so

The reality is that the numbers on the Left who do aspire to such thoughts are such a minority, that if the rightwing pundits didn't give them so much exposure 80% of the population wouldn't even know they exist.

What I find most short-sighted is how quick some (Skipper, I'm talking about you here) are to lump anyone into this camp, simply because they aren't able or willing to take a bit of time and think about what some thoughts might really mean.

Guess what? The very same Islamo-fascisim that threatens us today has been influenced and even encouraged by our own country in the recent past.

Does this make me an America hater?

If so our country is in a heap of trouble...

As the spectre of terror has now made you afraid of the same thoughts and ideas that will lead us to a victory in this fight.

This is the real "covert enemy" that will undermine our success.

-spence

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by spence

Bronko, you seriously don't buy this jackass do you?

By declaring those among us "the enemy" simply because they hold alternate viewpoints, Barone is declaring himself the enemy of our society. But hey, I respect his freedom to do so

The reality is that the numbers on the Left who do aspire to such thoughts are such a minority, that if the rightwing pundits didn't give them so much exposure 80% of the population wouldn't even know they exist.

What I find most short-sighted is how quick some (Skipper, I'm talking about you here) are to lump anyone into this camp, simply because they aren't able or willing to take a bit of time and think about what some thoughts might really mean.

Guess what? The very same Islamo-fascisim that threatens us today has been influenced and even encouraged by our own country in the recent past.

Does this make me an America hater?

If so our country is in a heap of trouble...

As the spectre of terror has now made you afraid of the same thoughts and ideas that will lead us to a victory in this fight.

This is the real "covert enemy" that will undermine our success.

-spence

That article wasn't mean to question your patriotism, I don't even know you. I just read what you and others post. Hell I don't know Skip. You can drawn your own conclusions regarding your own patriotism, I firmly know where mine stands.

Articles, books and free speech as a whole are meant to provoke thought and debate. After reading that article you immediately stood up and defended your patriotism.....good. I applaud that, I wish more people would.

Sometimes the liberals tend to think that their wack jobs and sh*t stirrers (sp) are more correct than those from the conservative side.

Like Michael Moore, Bill Maher and James Carville are any more correct in their rants than Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter???? LOL Absolutely NOT!

I found that article to be a very interesting angle on a portion of society that in my opinion clearly exists.

[stripersnipr]

So proclaiming to the world that our President is a liar in the midst of War will lead us to victory?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

I found that article to be a very interesting angle on a portion of society that in my opinion clearly exists.

Didn't really bring up the issue of patriotisim...unless you're talking about the America hater issue...

But to the point, this article really only applies to the extreme fringe...yet is directed at a broader group for partisan gain...

It's all part of the liberal boogyman mantra. Boo!

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

So proclaiming to the world that our President is a liar in the midst of War will lead us to victory?

If the people feel they have been misled then the trust must be restored before we can find a path to success...

So yes.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

If the people feel they have been misled then the trust must be restored before we can find a path to success...

So yes.

-spence

Thank you.

[Skitterpop]

There were many Germans who disagreed with what Hitler and his minions were doing.

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

So proclaiming to the world that our President is a liar in the midst of War will lead us to victory?

Not necessarily even though its true