Why do liberals oppose school choice and vouchers?

[Fishpart]

This is what you get when you have a Monopoly (failing one at that). NEA and NFT Unions should be disassembled part by part through anti-trust regulations.

US is #12 in the world in education yet spends 7X as much on education as the next highest spending country..

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

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US is #12 in the world in education yet spends 7X as much on education as the next highest spending country..

Which is yet more proof that there is no correlation between student performance and dollars spent, particularly when those dollars are spent on fat pensions and Cadillac healthcare, which does nothing to help the students.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

US is #12 in the world in education yet spends 7X as much on education as the next highest spending country..

Compare that to what we pay for healthcare and what the outcomes are. I don't think they are that much different.

I could care less about the teachers union. If I'm not happy with my town beaches, I don't expect the town to subsidize my private beach club membership.

Overall are more people using vouchers black or white?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Overall are more people using vouchers black or white?

I'm going to guess yellow
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

I'm going to guess yellow
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I'd guess black. Voucher programs are usually enacted in poor urban areas.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

If I'm not happy with my town beaches, I don't expect the town to subsidize my private beach club membership.

Overall are more people using vouchers black or white?

" If I'm not happy with my town beaches, I don't expect the town to subsidize my private beach club membership."

I agree. But (1) the right for you to go to a beautiful beach is not as vital as the right for a kid to get a decent education, correct? we're not talking about your desire to enjoy a pristine beach, which is a luxury. we're talking about giving kids the tools they need to rise up out of poverty. If you don't think one of those things is more important to society than the other, I'd say you were a wee bit cold-hearted.

and (2) voucher programs work out great, financially. for the towns that participate. In the city of Hartford, the town (which is bankrupt) spends $18,000 per kid, per year. In a voucher program, the town may give the parents $7k or $8k to send their kids to a private school. The town keeps the difference. Thus, the town itself, usually makes out great, since it doesn't refund nearly as much to the voucher program as it would spend on that kid, if that kid stayed in public school. So do the kids. Only the teachers union, and the politicians the unions have bought, would object. In most cases, the towns save money for each kid they help shift to a private school.

The only reason for a teachers union to object, is selfish greed, pure and simple. Teachers like the monopoly the government gives them.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

the right for you to go to a beautiful beach is not as vital as the right for a kid to get a decent education, correct? we're not talking about your desire to enjoy a pristine beach, which is a luxury. we're talking about giving kids the tools they need to rise up out of poverty. If you don't think one of those things is more important to society than the other, I'd say you were a wee bit cold-hearted.

Can't the same arguement be made about Obamacare - that the right to quality healthcare is important to society (and I won't insult you by saying that if you don't think it is important to society, then you are cold hearted)?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Can't the same arguement be made about Obamacare - that the right to quality healthcare is important to society (and I won't insult you by saying that if you don't think it is important to society, then you are cold hearted)?

Paul, the comparison to Obamacare may be flawed. In the case of vouchers, parents can elect to participate in the program if in their opinion, the public school is failing. Obamacare is forced upon us by force of law. Many people will be forced into Obamacare against their will.

I agree with you 100% that every American, every human being, has the right to healthcare. I disagree that Obamacare is the way to do it (though I don't claim to have a better answer). In the voucher program, few folks would disagree that the private schools offer a superior product, for less money, than the public schools.

And Obamacare will cost us an absolute fortune, whereas voucher programs necessarily reduce public spending. That's the beauty - the kids get a vastly superior education, and the towns have a net spending reduction. If that's not win-win, I don't know what is. But good luck trying to have a rational discussion on this subject with a teachers union.

Challenging points as usual...

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

US is #12 in the world in education yet spends 7X as much on education as the next highest spending country..

We also have a large amount of sucky parents in this country that don't really care to put time and effort into their children.......
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[FishermanTim]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

.......US is #12 in the world in education yet spends 7X as much on education as the next highest spending country..

When you have schools spend a great deal of time tutoring students so they can pass the MCAS test, and the students don't have time to get a full carriculum, you end up with a whole bunch of students that are as prepared for the next grade or even the next level of education as a monkey is prepared for brain surgery.

Now they are talking of extending the school year and the school day.....WHY???

Because the teachers don't have time to teach the required subjects after teaching the students on how to pass the MCAS!!!