ATLANTIC STRIPED BASS ASSESSMENT SUMMARY FOR 2013

[bobber]

striped bass were the one big success story in fisheries management history... and now its gone down the toilet. they have gone from abundance to scarcity it 10 years. it'll take another10 years at least to get back to anything even close to what it was in 2001 (insert yer favorite season......)

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Duh.

As long as the fishery is manipulated for maximum yield....as it will be when commercial interests are involved....the quality of fishing will suffer.

Obviously if recreational fishermen kill equivalent numbers of fish there is no difference. But that is not what happens. Once a fishery loses economic value it is managed for recreational quality rather than maximum yield and the pressure to kill and keep fish diminishes as does the pressure on the fishery scientists to keep justifying such kill for the economic well being of a small subset of resource users.

Numbskull is right , but the ones in charge don't want to hear that.

Striped bass are in trouble, no question about it
keep whackin and stackin and there will continue to be few fish around to have any chance at catching a decent bass

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Duh.

Once a fishery loses economic value it is managed for recreational quality rather than maximum yield and the pressure to kill and keep fish diminishes as does the pressure on the fishery scientists to keep justifying such kill for the economic well being of a small subset of resource users.

Once again totally wrong, all fisheries, by law, must be managed for MSY.

[blue oyster]

I ain't buying there crap 2 poor seasons in a row for me , i'm no sharpie but I put in the time

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Once again totally wrong, all fisheries, by law, must be managed for MSY.

You are hiding behind the ASMFC mandate.
You are hiding behind a commercial concept of maximum "yield" which implies dead fish.

What is the maximum sustainable yield that ensures a quality fishery?
Why are we not fishing to that number?
That number exists just as certainly as the one that is used for a fishery managed for maximum sustainable kill. The numbers are not the same. Someone makes a decision which number to use. That someone is heavily influenced by commercial pressure.

To fix it all we need is an amendment making striped bass a gamefish and stipulating they be fished to a maximum yield that sustains a quality fishery rather than a bare minimum surviving population as we do now.

It is not rocket science, you know it as well as I, which is exactly why you keep obfuscating the issue.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by numbskull

You are hiding behind the ASMFC mandate.
You are hiding behind a commercial concept of maximum "yield" which implies dead fish.

What is the maximum sustainable yield that ensures a quality fishery?
Why are we not fishing to that number?
That number exists just as certainly as the one that is used for a fishery managed for maximum sustainable kill. The numbers are not the same. Someone makes a decision which number to use. That someone is heavily influenced by commercial pressure.

To fix it all we need is an amendment making striped bass a gamefish and stipulating they be fished to a maximum yield that sustains a quality fishery rather than a bare minimum surviving population as we do now.

It is not rocket science, you know it as well as I, which is exactly why you keep obfuscating the issue.

I'm not hiding behind anything personally I don't give a crap. But the MSA requires all fisheries be managed for MSY. You otoh seem to misunderstand what the law requires.

[MAKAI]

Obfuscate , what a cool word , talk about bringing out the hammer !
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[Jackbass]

If we can not maintain the SSB target threshold maybe the MSY needs to be altered to reflect maintaining the target.
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[WESTPORTMAFIA]

This thread is worst than any of my urban dictionary posts. Delete or move to the political forum. This thread happens every year. It's older than Eve's TIIIT'S.
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[Jackbass]

Originally Posted by WESTPORTMAFIA

This thread is worst than any of my urban dictionary posts. Delete or move to the political forum. This thread happens every year. It's older than Eve's TIIIT'S.
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Sad but true. It shouldn't have to be a conversation.
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[WESTPORTMAFIA]

I'll refrain a little as I was only joking. But I think its a dead horse that belongs in the political forum
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[piemma]

WPM, you're right. It happens every year and we get no where. I am resolved to the fact that I will see the second moratorium of my life time for stripers. It is inevitable with the level of slaughter that is going on. I am not blaming anyone as the recs are as guilty as the comms with over harvesting what should be a game fish. But this IS a dead horse.

[Nebe]

It's not a dead horse. It's a horse you go out into a field every night and try to beat with a stick, but its never there. There used to be lots of horses in the field though..
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[l.i.fish.in.vt]

and some feilds that never had horses have more horses than ever.if the horses were distributed over all the feilds like years ago i would bet the number of horses has gone down slightly since there all time high some years back.not saying that measures shouldn't be taken to insure that there are horses in the future,but there are quite a few cowboys who speak out both sides of their mouths

[Jackbass]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

and some feilds that never had horses have more horses than ever.if the horses were distributed over all the feilds like years ago i would bet the number of horses has gone down slightly since there all time high some years back.not saying that measures shouldn't be taken to insure that there are horses in the future,but there are quite a few cowboys who speak out both sides of their mouths

Most of the time I talk out of my a&$. 😉
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[numbskull]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

...............but there are quite a few cowboys who speak out both sides of their mouths

And quite a few money loving ranchers with their heads in a hole and pleased with the view.

[N.ShoreFisher]

in my young and inexperienced opinion, this is EXACTLY the type of thread that belongs here. I thought the main forum was for just these types of conversations. Does it involve politics? Yes, but anything that is organized will always have politics at play. The issue, at least as it seems to me, is that no matter what side you're on, the bass are "property" of people. The fisheries management, the recs, the state, the fed....everyone THINKS they know the best way to manage the stock. If people looked towards the future without regard to their own interest, I have a feeling that there wouldn't need to be these discussions. But, as we're talking about humans, there will always be people who are in it just for themselves. Maybe someday I will win the powerball, then lobby for a senior level fisheries management position so I could change from the inside out!

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

lets not forget the wealthy egotistical ranchers who have their noses so far up in the air they can't see whats in front of them.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

lets not forget the wealthy egotistical ranchers who have their noses so far up in the air they can't see whats in front of them.

You're wrong there, my smug vituperative friend.

My nose is in the air because I wear bifocals and that is the only way I can see what is left the pathetic striped bass population you are so eager to accept is healthy.

Yes, yes, I understand, there are plenty of striped bass...... it is just that they all live over the horizon now so lets just keep killing all the ones we can still reach and things will be fine. After all, the only good bass is a dead bass.

Alas, although you don't seem to realize it, you are right. There are plenty of striped bass if the 2011 YOY is correct. Soon we will be crawling in 16" fish again. And in 10-15 years they will even be worth catching. So in the meantime any remaining fish are expendable and under the law, as MakoMike so gleefully trumpets, they should be killed.

True, that will leave nothing but small fish to catch, but so what? With the help of fishery managers the commercial size limit can always be adjusted downward to take advantage of the bonanza of small fish and business can go on without any threat to sustainability.

What's not to like? Other than me, of course.

[chrisjoe13]

Originally Posted by numbskull

You're wrong there, my smug vituperative friend.

My nose is in the air because I wear bifocals and that is the only way I can see what is left the pathetic striped bass population you are so eager to accept is healthy.

Yes, yes, I understand, there are plenty of striped bass...... it is just that they all live over the horizon now so lets just keep killing all the ones we can still reach and things will be fine. After all, the only good bass is a dead bass.

Alas, although you don't seem to realize it, you are right. There are plenty of striped bass if the 2011 YOY is correct. Soon we will be crawling in 16" fish again. And in 10-15 years they will even be worth catching. So in the meantime any remaining fish are expendable and under the law, as MakoMike so gleefully trumpets, they should be killed.

True, that will leave nothing but small fish to catch, but so what? With the help of fishery managers the commercial size limit can always be adjusted downward to take advantage of the bonanza of small fish and business can go on without any threat to sustainability.

What's not to like? Other than me, of course.

Thank you for writing what many are thinking...

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by numbskull

So in the meantime any remaining fish are expendable and under the law, as MakoMike so gleefully trumpets, they should be killed.

If you don't like the law work to change it, don't blame me for it. MSA is up for renewal next year, so here is your chance.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

If you don't like the law work to change it, don't blame me for it. MSA is up for renewal next year, so here is your chance.

I don't blame you for it, Mike. It is just that your posts help highlight the problem, namely using the law as an excuse to continue hammering a fishery that is badly damaged (even if it is still sustainable).

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I don't blame you for it, Mike. It is just that your posts help highlight the problem, namely using the law as an excuse to continue hammering a fishery that is badly damaged (even if it is still sustainable).

You still don't get it, its not an "excuse" its what the managers are required to do.

[afterhours]

Anyone with eyes who has fished the last decade or so knows the truth. We don't need any convoluted BS slingers telling us what's happening here. Take the $ bounty off their heads and get back to 1 @36" and presto change we will once again have a world class fishery.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by afterhours

Anyone with eyes who has fished the last decade or so knows the truth. We don't need any convoluted BS slingers telling us what's happening here. Take the $ bounty off their heads and get back to 1 @36" and presto change we will once again have a world class fishery.

"Convoluted BS slingers"? It would be illegal to do what you are suggesting.

[big jay]

MMike- if the next YOY assessment is low, will that trigger the reductions?
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[afterhours]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

"Convoluted BS slingers"? It would be illegal to do what you are suggesting.

what did i suggest that's illegal??????? as far gov't biologists go i've had them tell me to my face that their #'s could be off by as much as 50%. and why do so many long time fishermen see what i see? denial- it ain;t just a river in egypt.

[JohnR]

Tragedy of the commons.

Originally Posted by Nebe

It's not a dead horse. It's a horse you go out into a field every night and try to beat with a stick, but its never there. There used to be lots of horses in the field though..
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[zacs]

Originally Posted by numbskull

A healthy fishery is what we want, not a maximally exploited one, even if that exploitation is "sustainable".

I think this sums it up best. Unfortunately, Mike is right, the managers' hands are tied due to federal law.

Apparently, according to Mike, MSA is "up"? next year, so I guess now is the chance to make a change.

Changing to gamefish status, or 1@36" are all great mantras for Striped Bass regulation, but striped bass are just a very small piece of a gigantic confusing puzzle which is managed by MSA, and MSA won't allow for anything except taking MSY.

The way we assess & manage fisheries needs to drastically change, and it sounds like the chance to do this is with the re-visiting of the MSA next year.

The first question is, what is the new management scheme that is better than what they do now?

[Nebe]

Once I heard that the lobsterman of southern New England and Long Island sound were blaming the lobster crash on striped bass I knew bass would never be fully protected. Bass are like zack said.. A single piece in the puzzle.
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