Colorado baker ordered to serve gay wedding or face fines

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you are implying that ordering a cake has no connection to its specific use, that would be true if the ultimate use is not known to the baker. But if it is ordered as specified for a purpose, then that purpose is known to the baker, and if the baker's religion compels him to not participate in the purpose, what compels him to violate his beliefs and the Second Amendment's protection of that right?

How is the use of a cake for a gay wedding any different than a cake for a straight wedding? It's cake...you eat it.

Like I said before, I could see the baker refusing to make an outlandish cake, perhaps in the shape of a swastika or sexually suggestive somehow. But so far I've not read anything that suggests anything but a standard cake.
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

How is the use of a cake for a gay wedding any different than a cake for a straight wedding? It's cake...you eat it.

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The use is different in exactly the way you described it. It's used to celebrate a gay wedding. Its use is different in the same way a hammer's use to pound nails in construction differs from using it to break into someone's home. Just about any object can be used in different ways, some of which are not approved of by some people who would not therefore choose to sell the object to someone who would use it in a destructive way. The use of the baker's cake to celebrate something his god would forbid differs from that baker selling a cake to be used for something which his god would either approve or not disapprove.

Take it out of the context of religion and into a matter of law. It may be illegal to sell a gun to a convicted felon. But its usually not illegal to sell a gun to a "respectable" person with the right papers. It is assumed that the gun will be used for different purposes by people with anti-social character than by upstanding folks.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

How is the use of a cake for a gay wedding any different than a cake for a straight wedding? It's cake...you eat it.

Like I said before, I could see the baker refusing to make an outlandish cake, perhaps in the shape of a swastika or sexually suggestive somehow. But so far I've not read anything that suggests anything but a standard cake.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Spence, you should expect more of yourself.

The couple asked him to provide a cake for, and therefore somewhat participate in, a gay wedding. He chose not to.

The complexity of the cake is not relevant.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, you should expect more of yourself.

The couple asked him to provide a cake for, and therefore somewhat participate in, a gay wedding. He chose not to.

The complexity of the cake is not relevant.

The guy is on record having baked a cake for a wedding between two dogs. Was he participating in that also?

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The guy is on record having baked a cake for a wedding between two dogs. Was he participating in that also?

-spence

What is the "record"? Were the dogs gay? Did they have a marriage license? Do they qualify for government marriage benefits? Did the dogs say "I do" and pledge faithfulness for the rest of their lives? Is the judge comparing a dog wedding to a gay marriage? Does the baker's religion say anything about dog marriages? I believe the bible condemns humans from sexual relations with other animals, but doesn't condemn dogs doing it with dogs.

Or was it one of those cutesy things pet owners do which have no relation or meaning to the rest of society? You wanna make your dogs get "married," which don't amount to a pile of dog poop in terms of what marriage is as recognized either by religion or government? Don't mean squat to me (the baker) since it ain't for real. Here's your cake.

This judge is the kind of progressive joke that has been played upon this country and its traditions and constitutional laws. He, like the progressive judges who have "transformed" this country's governing structure from bottom up to a top down, adjudicates not by law, but by personal or agenda driven points of view. His type has made the judiciary the high priests of morality and the good rather than judges of the law. It didn't used to be, under a legal system, the judge's role to decide what was harmful to society. That used to be a matter left for society itself to determine.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

What is the "record"? Were the dogs gay? Did they have a marriage license? Do they qualify for government marriage benefits? Did the dogs say "I do" and pledge faithfulness for the rest of their lives? Is the judge comparing a dog wedding to a gay marriage? Does the baker's religion say anything about dog marriages? I believe the bible condemns humans from sexual relations with other animals, but doesn't condemn dogs doing it with dogs.

If he's that devout wouldn't he consider the marriage of two dogs an insult to the tradition?

Also, what does Jesus really say about homosexuality? Not much...

This judge is the kind of progressive joke that has been played upon this country and its traditions and constitutional laws. He, like the progressive judges who have "transformed" this country's governing structure from bottom up to a top down, adjudicates not by law, but by personal or agenda driven points of view. His type has made the judiciary the high priests of morality and the good rather than judges of the law. It didn't used to be, under a legal system, the judge's role to decide what was harmful to society. That used to be a matter left for society itself to determine.

The judge didn't make up the law.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

If he's that devout wouldn't he consider the marriage of two dogs an insult to the tradition?

I'm thinking he considered it no more than a harmless fantasy not intended to insult the tradition of marriage, or to change that tradition in any way. If there was some dog lover movement to "legalize" dog marriage, that would be a different story. Most Christians aren't so easily offended as, perhaps, Muslims are. If they were, the present state of government regulations and judicial decisions, as well as media portrayals, would have our society in a constant turmoil of burnings and bombings and all manor of havoc and killing as goes on in many Muslim dominated societies. Are you saying that he should have been more personally offended by the dog wedding? That's up to him. To be or not to be.

Also, what does Jesus really say about homosexuality? Not much...

Jesus added a New Testament to the religion he was born in. I don't know if he intended to completely throw out the old religion. Certainly most Christians don't consider the Old Testament to be totally obsolete. They seem to abide much of what is in it, including its views on sodomy.

The judge didn't make up the law.

-spence

Progressive judges have been making up laws for the past eighty years. And the progression and precedents of those "decisions" have led to not only laws on which present judges model their decisions, but have created a whole new mode of "interpretation." This judge follows in this progressive tradition by deciding on his own to determine what would create hurt or harm to society. The sense the Founders had of judicial decision was a determination based on law and an interpretation of what the words in the law meant, as written, and if governmental legislation actually abided by the restrictions the law allowed (i.e. enumerations in the Constitution). So, in his way, this judge added to this progressive tradition of inserting his personal views and feelings about what is good for society rather than following the ultimate law, the First Amendment. Their might be room for local government to impose restrictions on absolute (like that word here?) denial of service to a class of people (though, as I have said, that is in itself discriminatory), but not if it contradicts a constitutional guarantee. Not only did his decision, in the limited text of the reports, fail to include the State of Colorado's Constitution not recognizing gay marriage, but it violated the baker's First Amendment right in order to satisfy his personal opinion on what would harm society.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

If he's that devout wouldn't he consider the marriage of two dogs an insult to the tradition?

Also, what does Jesus really say about homosexuality? Not much...



The judge didn't make up the law.

-spence

Spoence, do you think a "marriage" between 2 dogs, is the equivalent of a marriage between two homosexuals? You don't see the difference there?

"The judge didn't make up the law."

But he may have ignored the constitution. That's what is bothersome to some here. Judges take an oath to uphold all of our laws, not just the ones they happen to like.