Ukraine

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

This is pretty heavy...

I like this perspective from the WP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...39c_story.html

-spence

Spence, here is another perspective sort of along the lines of, or at least allied with, your heavy article. I think you would agree with it, if it's not too aggressive for your tastes. I like parts of it. But I wonder why it takes an American as well as American treasure for something like this to happen. I do like the call for reinstating the plan to install the anti-ballistic sites in Poland and Czechoslovakia which the Obama administration eliminated. And I really like the call for stepping up U.S. oil production including the lifting of the bans on government sites. That would really benefit our sluggish economy as well as replace the need for Ukraine and Western Europe to depend on Russian high priced oil while it would remove Putin's ace against economic sanctions.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/03/05/...-in-the-teeth/

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Spence, here is another perspective sort of along the lines of, or at least allied with, your heavy article. I think you would agree with it, if it's not too aggressive for your tastes. I like parts of it. But I wonder why it takes an American as well as American treasure for something like this to happen. I do like the call for reinstating the plan to install the anti-ballistic sites in Poland and Czechoslovakia which the Obama administration eliminated. And I really like the call for stepping up U.S. oil production including the lifting of the bans on government sites. That would really benefit our sluggish economy as well as replace the need for Ukraine and Western Europe to depend on Russian high priced oil while it would remove Putin's ace against economic sanctions.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/03/05/...-in-the-teeth/

I said above that we have several economic options that would do Russia serious harm. The Administration has certainly indicated this is a route we're willing to go down.

As for his assertion the Ukraine should cut off Crimea from services...that's pretty unwise IMHO and would give Putin further rationale to move under the guise of protecting Russians...

-spence

[justplugit]

I like Tracinski's approach, but it would take an administration that doesn't pussy foot around, wouldn't pull shields from the Poles and Cheks, have open mikes revealing "we'll talk after the election" and pushing re-set buttons.
The message has already been sent ,and unless there is a 360, Putin will milk it for all it's worth.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I like Tracinski's approach, but it would take an administration that doesn't pussy foot around, wouldn't pull shields from the Poles and Cheks, have open mikes revealing "we'll talk after the election" and pushing re-set buttons.
The message has already been sent ,and unless there is a 360, Putin will milk it for all it's worth.

The reality is as Obama once noted...the Cold War really is over. Putin can play games but most of what was the Eastern Bloc are now EU and NATO members.

Without strong ties to Western antagonists and an energy dependent economy Russia has little to offer, it's a 3rd world country.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The reality is as Obama once noted...the Cold War really is over. Putin can play games but most of what was the Eastern Bloc are now EU and NATO members.

Without strong ties to Western antagonists and an energy dependent economy Russia has little to offer, it's a 3rd world country.

-spence

Which is why I don't understand why the U.S. has to be involved. We could supply the Eastern Europeans with some weaponry and technology. The combined EU has more than enough resource and manpower to stand on their own, and to slap Putin and his ambitions silly. Even more so, since most of the Russian people don't want to go the mat for their Stalin-lite dictator's expansionist desire if it means they have to sacrifice and die for it. That would be the most demonstrative and lasting way for the Europeans to discourage threats from tyrannical bullies.

Maybe they just haven't fully bought in to what a union requires. Maybe they like and want to keep their differences intact, including the eternal squabbles and hates and jealousies among each other. And maybe they are just too used to depending on Big Brother America stepping in to do the dirty, bloody, and expensive heavy lifting. And maybe too many of them have their own internal problems, ethnic and economic, that concern them more than the fate of Ukraine.

The greatest good for their union, if they want to keep it and make it work, would be for them to get a unified backbone and punch the bully in the face, without outside help, and keep punching till he can't get up.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Which is why I don't understand why the U.S. has to be involved. We could supply the Eastern Europeans with some weaponry and technology. The combined EU has more than enough resource and manpower to stand on their own, and to slap Putin and his ambitions silly.

Maybe they could get together a "Rainbow Coalition" to fight the oppressor....send a double message to Putin.

Call it "Operation Slap-Tickle"

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Which is why I don't understand why the U.S. has to be involved. We could supply the Eastern Europeans with some weaponry and technology. The combined EU has more than enough resource and manpower to stand on their own, and to slap Putin and his ambitions silly. Even more so, since most of the Russian people don't want to go the mat for their Stalin-lite dictator's expansionist desire if it means they have to sacrifice and die for it. That would be the most demonstrative and lasting way for the Europeans to discourage threats from tyrannical bullies.

It's not about weapons, Russia's ability to use direct military force is geographically quite limited. They went to Crimea as it was one of the few important places they thought they could get away with it. The thing is they already have a military presence there and by treaty can have a very large military presence until 2048. Aside from some economic output does Crimea really gain them all that much? Given the push back from the West a land grab into eastern Ukraine doesn't seem very likely.

It's amazing how the GOP has jumped on Obama even going so far as to blame him for Crimea because he's "weak." I think the opposite may be true, our policy is putting a lot of strain on Russia and forcing their hand.

Regardless, the lack of unity must be giving Putin all the reassurance they need that we won't act. If anything, comments by the likes of Sen Graham and Rep Rogers are emboldening Russia's actions.

Maybe they just haven't fully bought in to what a union requires. Maybe they like and want to keep their differences intact, including the eternal squabbles and hates and jealousies among each other. And maybe they are just too used to depending on Big Brother America stepping in to do the dirty, bloody, and expensive heavy lifting. And maybe too many of them have their own internal problems, ethnic and economic, that concern them more than the fate of Ukraine.

The greatest good for their union, if they want to keep it and make it work, would be for them to get a unified backbone and punch the bully in the face, without outside help, and keep punching till he can't get up.

Certainly the EU should act more as a union, but that doesn't count us out of it. We don't rely on Russia for much compared to the EU and they'll need our backing to lessen any economic ties, they can't do it alone.

Germany is the real nut here with I think Poland a rising second...

-spence

[nightfighter]

There is something in Crimea that he wants, or wants to keep from getting out. What it is? I don't have a clue. It is clearly important enough to have risked all the goodwill he built (and now lost) from Sochi.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

The reality is as Obama once noted...the Cold War really is over.

-spence

The cold war maybe over as it was once described, but if he looks out
the window and sees Iran, Syria, North Korea, and now the Ukraine,
the winter vortex is coming fast.
I really doubt the EU wants to make the sacrifices needed to pressure
Russia. As was stated ,it is the US that always carries the heavy load and it's
time Europe stood up to the plate and lead the way.