Obama the Liar at it again...

[Raven]

the thread topic implies that Barry lies on occasion

so that's laughable considering he's a compulsive
schizophrenic pathological liar 100% of the time

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Spence

According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.

I agree that is true.

So, how do we best keep the illegal guns out of criminals hands?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Spence
Whats the % of gun crimes committed with legal guns compared to illegal ???
According to most studies 95% crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns.
Gun control is not the problem. People are the problem.

You're 95% number doesn't tell us very much. So criminals usually use illegal guns...what a freaking revelation that is!

What's the difference between a legal gun and an illegal one anyway? If you have a gigantic surplus of legal guns wouldn't that make it a heck of a lot easier for criminals to get guns which would *instantly* make them illegal guns?

The number of guns in the US is mind boggling...over 270 million which is 6 times higher than any other nation and as many as the next 18 countries COMBINED.

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I agree that is true.

So, how do we best keep the illegal guns out of criminals hands?

Harsh jail time if you commit a crime with a firearm . Enforce the current law instead of plea bargaining them out .
Don't give them free to Mexican cartels where they will be used to kill hundreds including border agents
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

You're 95% number doesn't tell us very much. So criminals usually use illegal guns...what a freaking revelation that is!

What's the difference between a legal gun and an illegal one anyway? If you have a gigantic surplus of legal guns wouldn't that make it a heck of a lot easier for criminals to get guns which would *instantly* make them illegal guns?

The number of guns in the US is mind boggling...over 270 million which is 6 times higher than any other nation and as many as the next 18 countries COMBINED.

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Fly Rod]

Spence..U can not compare Canada to the US for gun ownership, 35 million population...2 million legal guns would equal approximately 17% of the population

The US with approximately 317,000,000....55million legal gun owners would be approx. 6% of the population own guns...BUT... with 55 million gun owners U R about correct they own around 300 million guns

That is enough fire power to take on the US goverment if the need ever arose to take on the government in gorilla warfare.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It's no wonder our rate of gun homicide is #1 in the developed world.

But no, it must be all about the people.

-spence

Spence, I posted the data to show that here in the US, gun homicide rates are not proportional to our gun ownership - our gun murder rates are much higher than what can be explained by an increase in gun ownership. In other words, the presence of guns does not explain our gun homicide rate. The only plausible alternative explanation is the culture. Kudos to the mouthpieces on your side who have been wildly successful at de-valuing life, as well as mocking religion and family values. Also liberal heroes in Hollywood exposing our kids to vile filth. Nah, that can't have anything to do with it.

You absolutely know that you are posting things that are contradicted by the data, yet you continue to spout this because you want it to be true. Incredible.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Correct, Liberal are also, as a group (not all of them), soft on crime. Bill Maher went on a rant just this week that our incarceration rates are way too high, given that crime rates are doing down.

Here is a liberal with a talk show, and he can't connect the dots to understand that if you lock up lots of criminal, crime rates should go down. But Maher's solution to crime, apparently, is to empty put prisons.

[Pete F.]

You guys sound like the Rush and Bernie show. They actually are not on the same show but both Rush Limbaugh and Bernie Sanders find extreme examples that of course any halfwit would find unacceptable. The evil illegal immigrants, maybe you should talk to the smart ones they are here for a self defined amount of time, making multiple times what they could at home and then getting out and going home to live well the rest of their lives. They are too conservative to want to pay for everyone else. We have more people in prisons than anyone else in the world, its not getting better, we need to fix it. The criminals in charge have now fixed our healthcare system, did you know that now if you get health insurance and quit paying, that after three months they cancel your health insurance. The surprising part is that the insurance company gets all the money it paid out back, how come it doesn't work like that for my business.
Notice how your doctor now spends more time looking at his computer than you, the bean counters have decided that it is in your better interest to have all procedures have a 5 digit code so they can better determine our health care needs. It was a 3 digit code but now they need to know if it is the first visit, second or final. Most doctors used to say try this, if it doesn't work come back and see me.

[The Dad Fisherman]

That must be that Fuzzy math I've always heard about

You might want to re-check those numbers...you have them flipped.

Canada 5.7%
U.S. 17.6 %

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Spence..U can not compare Canada to the US for gun ownership, 35 million population...2 million legal guns would equal approximately 17% of the population

The US with approximately 317,000,000....55million legal gun owners would be approx. 6% of the population own guns...BUT... with 55 million gun owners U R about correct they own around 300 million guns

That is enough fire power to take on the US goverment if the need ever arose to take on the government in gorilla warfare.

[Fly Rod]

Fuzzy Math....hmmmmm.

If ya take the 35million people divide by 2million gun owners I get the 17...lol

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

It would be interesting to check how many violent gun crimes are committed by repeat offenders . I'm guessing 1/2 would be a good number but I bet it's low .
I would also like to know the number committed by illegal aliens .
Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

It's not the guns that are repeat offenders .....WTF??
. That's pathetic Spence but typical . If you want an honest debate you have to aknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence . Abolishing the 2nd amendment won't work . Sorry to disappoint you .
And why would you think illegals are not crossing the border with weapons? Because they don't want to do something illegal ?
I don't know when the last time you bought a weapon was, but I suggest you look into it. It is a lot harder than you would like to believe.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

Are the repeat offenders repeating with the same guns?

Do the illegals cross the border with weapons or do they get them here?

Something tells me you probably wouldn't have thought about that.

-spence

Do drunks drivers repeat with the the same booze or cars...lets get rid if booze, vehicles and while we are at it cell phones. Texting is the number one cause of auto accidents these days. It's not the people, it's the guns, booze, cars and cell phones that do all the killing...lets ban them all.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

It's not the guns that are repeat offenders .....WTF??
. That's pathetic Spence but typical . If you want an honest debate you have to aknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence . Abolishing the 2nd amendment won't work . Sorry to disappoint you .

I never said such a thing nor have I ever called for abolishing the 2nd Amendment.

There are many reasons for gun violence. If you're so open to an honest debate and are willing to acknowledge all possible reasons for gun violence I'd think you could connect the dots between proliferation and outcome.

And why would you think illegals are not crossing the border with weapons? Because they don't want to do something illegal ?
I don't know when the last time you bought a weapon was, but I suggest you look into it. It is a lot harder than you would like to believe.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I'm sure some do but the flow of arms is generally from the US where there's plentiful supply to Mexico where there's a high demand.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Piscator

Do drunks drivers repeat with the the same booze or cars...lets get rid if booze, vehicles and while we are at it cell phones. Texting is the number one cause of auto accidents these days. It's not the people, it's the guns, booze, cars and cell phones that do all the killing...lets ban them all.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Piscator, you forgot the US Census figures on knife homicides, ranging from 15.3% to 28.6% with around 20% in most states. They didn't include blunt instruments either.
Time to ban knifes, bats and fishing rods that could be made into sharp instruments too.

[Fly Rod]

not to mention breast implants...them taut nipples R causing an epidemic of blindness due to poked eyes....LOL...

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Piscator, you forgot the US Census figures on knife homicides, ranging from 15.3% to 28.6% with around 20% in most states. They didn't include blunt instruments either.
Time to ban knifes, bats and fishing rods that could be made into sharp instruments too.

According to the FBI:

Firearms: 67.8%
Knives or other cutting instruments: 13.4%
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.): 5.7%
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.): 3.9%
Other dangerous weapons: 9.2%

Mind the gap.

-spence

[Pete F.]

Do you think that it is just because we can have firearms?http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_..._homicide_rate
We should have the highest intentional homicide rate then, shouldn't we?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

According to the FBI:

Firearms: 67.8%
Knives or other cutting instruments: 13.4%
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.): 5.7%
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.): 3.9%
Other dangerous weapons: 9.2%

Mind the gap.

-spence

It's an interesting link Spence. Minorities are involved in the majority of homicides . There is an interesting number of justifiable homicides. Translation ...life's saved . I was looking for a link to repeat offenders but I didn't find one .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

It's an interesting link Spence. Minorities are involved in the majority of homicides . There is an interesting number of justifiable homicides. Translation ...life's saved . I was looking for a link to repeat offenders but I didn't find one .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

His link?

What's interesting is why we're a bit of an abnormality among developed nations. Some of this could be due to sheer size, but the preponderance of weapons is something that can't be ignored.

I've looked into justified homicides before and while it certainly does happen it's still quite rare and often in the home. There of course are equally rare situations where good intentions go awry.

My assumption on repeat offenders is that if you commit a crime with a gun and are caught, you'll need to get another gun to repeat.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

His link?

What's interesting is why we're a bit of an abnormality among developed nations. Some of this could be due to sheer size, but the preponderance of weapons is something that can't be ignored.

I've looked into justified homicides before and while it certainly does happen it's still quite rare and often in the home. There of course are equally rare situations where good intentions go awry.

My assumption on repeat offenders is that if you commit a crime with a gun and are caught, you'll need to get another gun to repeat.

-spence

Defensive use of guns is not rare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

And:
http://www.examiner.com/article/detr...arm-themselves

And:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5128271.html

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

His link?

the preponderance of weapons is something that can't be ignored.


-spence

No, it can't be ignored. But we can't fanatically obsess with it, to the exclusion of other possibilities, either.

One last time. See if you can follow. Check out this link, which lists gun ownership rates and gun murder rates by state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...tates_by_state

From this link, you can see some things that suggest that your conclusion, that proliferation of guns is the core issue, is false.

Wyoming is ranked #1 in gun ownership at 59.7% of the residents. Spence, do you therefore presume that Wyoming has a problem with gun violence? Really? According to that data, Wyoming had the 9th lowest gun murder rate in the nation.

Flip side, let's look at DC. DC has the lowest gun ownership rate in the country, the absolute lowest, at 3.6%. Spence, based on your logic, gun crime in DC shuold be low, right? In fact, DC has the very highest gun murder rate in the nation. Are you going to tell me that the murders in DC are committed by tourists from Wyoming who come into DC with their guns blazing?

Therefore, while I agree that gun crime cannot occur if guns don't exist, you have to concede that there is not a great correlation between gun ownership and gun crime. The data could not be much more clear on this.

Why can the people of Wyoming own so many guns, yet be so less likely to use them on each other? Family values and religion, the very things that many on your side spend a lot of resources mocking. Your side likes to tell people, especially people who live in places like DC and Chicago, that religion and family values have no place in the modern world.

Stop saying that it's all about guns. Spence, if you owned 50 guns, would you be more likely to murder anybody with them, than you are today? Of course not.

We need to deal with the attitude so many have, that the only thing that matters is the self. The guns are out there, and that is fact. The most effective thing we can do, is restore in our citizenry, a minimal amount of empathy for others.

I'm not a big fan of guns, and I think that requiring the chip on the trigger that verifies the fingerprint of the owner (so that nobody else can fire the gun) is a good idea. But what's scarier to me than guns, is the willingness of so many Americans to do God-awful things to each other.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

No, it can't be ignored. But we can't fanatically obsess with it, to the exclusion of other possibilities, either.

One last time. See if you can follow. Check out this link, which lists gun ownership rates and gun murder rates by state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...tates_by_state

From this link, you can see some things that suggest that your conclusion, that proliferation of guns is the core issue, is false.

Wyoming is ranked #1 in gun ownership at 59.7% of the residents. Spence, do you therefore presume that Wyoming has a problem with gun violence? Really? According to that data, Wyoming had the 9th lowest gun murder rate in the nation.

Flip side, let's look at DC. DC has the lowest gun ownership rate in the country, the absolute lowest, at 3.6%. Spence, based on your logic, gun crime in DC shuold be low, right? In fact, DC has the very highest gun murder rate in the nation. Are you going to tell me that the murders in DC are committed by tourists from Wyoming who come into DC with their guns blazing?

Therefore, while I agree that gun crime cannot occur if guns don't exist, you have to concede that there is not a great correlation between gun ownership and gun crime. The data could not be much more clear on this.

Why can the people of Wyoming own so many guns, yet be so less likely to use them on each other? Family values and religion, the very things that many on your side spend a lot of resources mocking. Your side likes to tell people, especially people who live in places like DC and Chicago, that religion and family values have no place in the modern world.

Stop saying that it's all about guns. Spence, if you owned 50 guns, would you be more likely to murder anybody with them, than you are today? Of course not.

We need to deal with the attitude so many have, that the only thing that matters is the self. The guns are out there, and that is fact. The most effective thing we can do, is restore in our citizenry, a minimal amount of empathy for others.

I'm not a big fan of guns, and I think that requiring the chip on the trigger that verifies the fingerprint of the owner (so that nobody else can fire the gun) is a good idea. But what's scarier to me than guns, is the willingness of so many Americans to do God-awful things to each other.

I love it, comparing Wyoming with Washington DC. Brilliant analysis...

This issue actually has been studied.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/ne...and-homicides/

Remember that in areas like DC or Chicago with tough gun laws and yet ample crime that the crime generally was present before the gun laws were passed...that's why they have tough gun laws, to aid with prosecution. Given the easy availability of firearms outside of restricted areas I don't think you can assume a localized law will have a depressing impact on behavior...although that's what the NRA would like you to believe.

The reason so many gun control advocates want Federal legislation is precisely because localized efforts are challenged by short-termism and open state borders.

Very few in this country want to ban weapons entirely, but the opposing position -- that more guns is always the answer -- is just as faulty.

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

Harsh jail time if you commit a crime with a firearm . Enforce the current law instead of plea bargaining them out .Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

Harsh punishment for firearm crimes also prevents first offenses.
We ban plenty of things that get into the hands of criminals. illegal drugs are directly related to many gun crimes. To blame the firearm is illogical.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

Harsh punishment for firearm crimes also prevents first offenses.
We ban plenty of things that get into the hands of criminals. illegal drugs are directly related to many gun crimes. To blame the firearm is illogical.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I don't blame the guns, but the seemingly high accessibility of firearms puts them into the hands of people who shouldn't get them.

If it isn't some loophole, how do they get the guns? I don't know the answer, either....

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

As I said before, there's really no difference between a legal gun and an illegal one.

The big problem here is the NRA, not the members mind you but the leadership who work tirelessly to whip everybody into a panic by pushing conspiracy theories that enrich themselves and their benefactors.

There's a lot of rational legislation the NRA leadership opposes simply because it would slow the free flow of firearms...

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, comparing Wyoming with Washington DC. Brilliant analysis...

This issue actually has been studied.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/ne...and-homicides/

Remember that in areas like DC or Chicago with tough gun laws and yet ample crime that the crime generally was present before the gun laws were passed...that's why they have tough gun laws, to aid with prosecution. Given the easy availability of firearms outside of restricted areas I don't think you can assume a localized law will have a depressing impact on behavior...although that's what the NRA would like you to believe.

The reason so many gun control advocates want Federal legislation is precisely because localized efforts are challenged by short-termism and open state borders.

Very few in this country want to ban weapons entirely, but the opposing position -- that more guns is always the answer -- is just as faulty.

-spence

"I love it, comparing Wyoming with Washington DC. Brilliant analysis..."

Aha! But it was you, not I, who said that gun crime is driven primarily by gun ownership. If what you said had a shred of validity to it, then the crime rates in DC and Wyoming would be a function of gun ownership. And clearly, that is not the case. My data refutes that as clearly as anything can be refuted.

You are right! The citizens of DC and the citizens of Wyoming are very different. And it is the cultural and socioeconomic differences between the 2 groups, not merely the presence of guns, that is the root cause of gun crime. There is a reason why 50 Cent and Snoop Dog don't do concerts in Wyoming and South Dakota, yet they sell out in places like DC and Chicago (meaning, they sell out in places with high crime rates). Thank you for making my point for me. You don't often hear radical liberals concede that you cannot compare expected behavior between those who live in DC and those who live in Wyoming...

"that's why they have tough gun laws, to aid with prosecution"

There is nothing you won't make up, will you? In the aftermath of the Newtown shooting, liberals were not calling for tough gun laws "to aid with the prosecution" of the gunmen. The liberals were calling for tough gun laws, because they claim it will reduce gun crime and save lives. Can't you go 5 seconds without being so blatantly dishonest?

I'll ask you again...Why can the citizens of Wyoming own so many more guns than the citizens of DC, yet commit so much less crime?

Why can't you answer that? Could it be the fact that there is no answer to that question, which doesn't repudiate your claims here?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Great. Stops a potential second offense. I don't disagree.

How do so many guns get into criminals hands in the first place, if there are no loop-holes or other talking points that the advocate side or the NRA side use.... are they all stolen? Is it shell buyers? how do we attack that part of the problem...?

I'm all good with people owning weapons for sport, hunting and self defense, but the sheer volume that seems accessible to criminals is very disconcerting...

Good, fair, reasonable points.

But the scariest thing isn't the availability of guns. To me, the scary thing is how many of our citizens have it within them to do evil things to each other. If we got rid of all the guns, that doesn't address the fact that there are still a lot of would-sociopaths out there. That is the problem. The gun is the tool, and a very dangerous tool that requires regulation.

But the best solution is to get the peole in DC to be no more willing to do evil than the people of Wyoming. IMHO, the conservative agenda tries to address that, and the liberal agenda exacerbates that.