2 NYPD officers executed in response for Brown and Garner

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Originally Posted by detbuch

How on earth do "you get a spontaneous crowd"? "Spontaneous" suggests arising from its own motivation, not connected with preceding events or rhetoric. You seem to like this "spontaneous crowd" thing as an explanation to absolve those who could have prevented it, as in the Benghazi "spontaneous" eruption that killed our folks.

You have a planned peaceful event with unwanted elements showing up and turning a march into a disorganized crowd where violence erupts. Not rocket science.

But any opportunity to bring up Benghazi we should embrace.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

You have a planned peaceful event with unwanted elements showing up and turning a march into a disorganized crowd where violence erupts. Not rocket science.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean in general, but specifically the events in question? Did the unwanted elements just happen to show up? Or was there purpose in their presence. Were the majority of marchers saying "what do we want, dead cops" saying that by spontaneous accident or on purpose as planned. Who was the unwanted element in such a crowd? People who opposed what was being chanted? Yeah, I can imagine if a bunch of hard core racists were marching and singing racial epithets, spontaneously mind you, and some peaceful little guy got in the middle of it pleading for tolerance, the racists might spontaneously beat the crap out of him. But I think the racists would not consider the beating just some spontaneous event, but rather a justified retaliation against a deliberate provocation. However possible it could be that some one would accidentally insert himself into a major demonstration which is already filled with reactionary emotion, and then accidentally say or do something to further provoke the demonstrators, however possible that might be, I find it hard to believe in these events. My suspicion, however wrong it may be, is that whatever violence occurred was not spontaneous of the moment. But that it was done, not in the unconscious heat of the moment, but on purpose.

But any opportunity to bring up Benghazi we should embrace.

Yeah, let's just bring up racism and torture any opportunity that can make the other guys look bad.

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Originally Posted by detbuch

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean in general, but specifically the events in question? Did the unwanted elements just happen to show up? Or was there purpose in their presence. Were the majority of marchers saying "what do we want, dead cops" saying that by spontaneous accident or on purpose as planned. Who was the unwanted element in such a crowd? People who opposed what was being chanted? Yeah, I can imagine if a bunch of hard core racists were marching and singing racial epithets, spontaneously mind you, and some peaceful little guy got in the middle of it pleading for tolerance, the racists might spontaneously beat the crap out of him. But I think the racists would not consider the beating just some spontaneous event, but rather a justified retaliation against a deliberate provocation. However possible it could be that some one would accidentally insert himself into a major demonstration which is already filled with reactionary emotion, and then accidentally say or do something to further provoke the demonstrators, however possible that might be, I find it hard to believe in these events. My suspicion, however wrong it may be, is that whatever violence occurred was not spontaneous of the moment. But that it was done, not in the unconscious heat of the moment, but on purpose..

Weren't there over 25 thousand people marching in NYC? Your example while offensive is in the dozens. It's being spun by some media as if to claim there's a militant uprising welling against the police.

Isn't that every bit and perhaps more the incitement you're arguing against?

[detbuch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean in general, but specifically the events in question? Did the unwanted elements just happen to show up? Or was there purpose in their presence. Were the majority of marchers saying "what do we want, dead cops" saying that by spontaneous accident or on purpose as planned. Who was the unwanted element in such a crowd? People who opposed what was being chanted? Yeah, I can imagine if a bunch of hard core racists were marching and singing racial epithets, spontaneously mind you, and some peaceful little guy got in the middle of it pleading for tolerance, the racists might spontaneously beat the crap out of him. But I think the racists would not consider the beating just some spontaneous event, but rather a justified retaliation against a deliberate provocation. However possible it could be that some one would accidentally insert himself into a major demonstration which is already filled with reactionary emotion, and then accidentally say or do something to further provoke the demonstrators, however possible that might be, I find it hard to believe in these events. My suspicion, however wrong it may be, is that whatever violence occurred was not spontaneous of the moment. But that it was done, not in the unconscious heat of the moment, but on purpose..

Originally Posted by spence

Weren't there over 25 thousand people marching in NYC? Your example while offensive is in the dozens.

I am not able to see the connection of your response to my post.

It's being spun by some media as if to claim there's a militant uprising welling against the police.

I admit I haven't been paying attention to the media spin.

Isn't that every bit and perhaps more the incitement you're arguing against?

Didn't realize I was arguing against incitement. I thought I was stating my doubts as to the spontaneity of crowd reactions.

In regard, though, to media incitement, I agree that the media like to provoke and draw out for expanded coverage time--provoke for profit. On the other hand, when they DO report objectively, or some semblance of that, there's the problem of viewer twist. As we have been demonstrating in these posts, perceptions based on bias rather than facts is a big problem.

Too bad we are such a flawed species. Wouldn't it be better if we were as regimented as the other species on the planet? That would make our "system" and "process" so much more manageable. Maybe the federal government should gather and publish lots of data on media provocation and viewer misperception. The data, then, could tell us how we are supposed to act.

We would then be a totally peaceful society. It would probably even eradicate the need for torture.