The million crybaby march is underway...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person "

That's what the liberal arts professors want you to think. I reject that. I went to an awesome Catholic high school, I knew how to write, and think logically, long before I got to college. Maybe at the most prestigious schools do you get a lot out of those classes. At UCONN, I regurgitated their lectures back to them to get good grades. 99% of what I learned in those classes, was of no value whatsoever. I also took classes at Southern CT State University (not a great school) and Tufts in Mass (a terrific school). The liberal arts classes did absolutely nothing except eat up valuable time and tuition money.

If we want to cut costs significantly, these are the things we need to consider.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person "

That's what the liberal arts professors want you to think. I reject that. I went to an awesome Catholic high school, I knew how to write, and think logically, long before I got to college. Maybe at the most prestigious schools do you get a lot out of those classes. At UCONN, I regurgitated their lectures back to them to get good grades. 99% of what I learned in those classes, was of no value whatsoever. I also took classes at Southern CT State University (not a great school) and Tufts in Mass (a terrific school). The liberal arts classes did absolutely nothing except eat up valuable time and tuition money.
If we want to cut costs significantly, these are the things we need to consider.

Easy answer. Send your kids to RPI, WPI etc., they will be great engineers. OR to school in Taiwan.

But bash away on liberal arts. There are a number of studies (two are below) that show that broad based liberal arts students, are very desirable in the job market. They ability to think, brainstorm and problem solve (beyond engineering calculations) tend to do well training managers, not just drones. Not well articulated in these two, but others I have read, is that the benefit is higher for liberal arts students in a STEM field (which is what I happen to do).

http://www.usnews.com/news/college-o...-employers-say

https://www.aacu.org/press/press-rel...ates-long-term

And as a prof, your friend clearly does the bear minimum and is lucky to survive. Between teaching and research, I average over 50hr a week, including summers and breaks. Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Easy answer. Send your kids to RPI, WPI etc., they will be great engineers. OR to school in Taiwan.

But bash away on liberal arts. There are a number of studies (two are below) that show that broad based liberal arts students, are very desirable in the job market. They ability to think, brainstorm and problem solve (beyond engineering calculations) tend to do well training managers, not just drones. Not well articulated in these two, but others I have read, is that the benefit is higher for liberal arts students in a STEM field (which is what I happen to do).

http://www.usnews.com/news/college-o...-employers-say

https://www.aacu.org/press/press-rel...ates-long-term

And as a prof, your friend clearly does the bear minimum and is lucky to survive. Between teaching and research, I average over 50hr a week, including summers and breaks. Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcome. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.

"your friend clearly does the bear minimum " How the hell would you know that? He's very highly regarded on campus. The fact is, and it's a secret those in academia guard very closely, is that it's just not demanding. He teaches no more than 3 classes a semester. He has told me he does everything he can think of doing, and he can't get it to work out to 1,000 hours a year. I am certain he works harder than most of his colleagues, his students would certainly say so. He's just honest. I'm sorry if you don't like that. That you don't like it, doesn't make it false.

If a group of professors can't bring themselves to say out loud "boys should go to the boys' bathroom", then just perhaps, they don't have as much to teach as they think they do.

It's awfully presumptuous to assume that everyone is better off taking these classes. Even if they are better off, is it worth going that much deeper into debt? Why not leave that up to the consumer...the student? Why does that stuff have to be mandatory? Again, what's wrong with "choice"?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcomegets mobbed off the stage. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.

Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

"It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless"

I'm out of school, my loans are paid off, it's not my gripe. I am trying to think about the welfare of the next generation. No skin off my nose.

"I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page"

You'd be hard-pressed to find an occupation with more one-dimensional nerds than my field, actuarial science. I just don't think the answer is necessarily more liberal arts courses. Especially when we need to figure out ways to lower costs.

What's wrong with making it optional?

Bryan, look at the Yale kids, going berserk because a college professor was honest enough to tell them that they need to accept the fact that in life. sometimes they will get offended. And they couldn't deal with hearing that, so they are engaging in anarchy. I challenge the assumption that everyone is necessarily better off being exposed to whoever is teaching these kids to think this way.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

I have taught actuarial science classes at UCONN, and Univ of Hartford. I could EASILY teach 3 a semester, and it wouldn't take me 30 hours a week, not even close. But math is probably one of the less time-consuming things to teach.

Maybe science is different.

I also don't think it's always fair that students pay for professors to do research and publish (science may be different). If you want to do research, find someone to pay you to do that. I don't think many students pick their college based on the articles published by employed faculty. Again, let the consumer, the student, make the choice. If he wants to take a particular class taught by an unknown graduate student, let him choose that and save money. If he wants to take out loans up to his eyeballs to take a class taught by a big lasagna in that field, let him choose that and live with the debt. if doing research makes you that much of a better teacher, the laws of supply and demand suggest that enough students will want to pay your premium. Personally, I don't think that's usually the case. Again, science may be different.

I think a lot of it is a scam, carefully orchestrated by the academics to live quite comfortably for doing not much teaching. I don't think I ever had a professor who taught more than 3 classes a semester. High school teachers teach all day, non stop.

Liz Warren, aka Apache Chief, complains tirelessly about how expensive college is, and how unfair it is to the kids. This is the same jerk who made 400k a year teaching at Harvard. If she really wants to make college affordable, she can take a huge paycut.

You fix a problem by addressing the primary cause of the problem. No one denies that college is too expensive. Where do colleges spend most of their money? I assume it's salary and payroll. Therefore, my critical thinking skills tell me, that's where the problem lies, and therefore where we can make the biggest dent in college costs.