The million crybaby march is underway...

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Liberals claim to care about choice, claim to care bout helping the poor. Yet if a poor kid wants to go to UCONN to stuy engineeriung, but he can't afford all the extra stuff, you'd relegate him to a sub-par school.

It has nothing to do with relegating them. It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees.

Then WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'

I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')

For a full-time student, there is not much difference financially for full-time (12-18 credits/semester), so this is less than 1 course a semester 'extra'. For Part-time, there is a difference in cost per-course, however, the English majors forced to take my Earth Science classes probably feel the same way, but I damn sure think they should take some science and math!

For UCONN Accounting, why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major, you think it is just a big scam? It isn't to fulfill the requirements for the national board for accrediting a degree. This isn't about denying choice.
I counted 7 "Extra" classes for accounting, and I suspect you can double dip categories and requirements to get this to 4 or 5.

"We were the first accounting program in New England to receive separate national accreditation by AACSB International, the premier accrediting agency for Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral degree programs in business administration and accounting."
http://accounting.business.uconn.edu/#


This is all based on MY experience as a professor. It isn't a perfect system but what you describe is a step backwards, NOT forward.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

It has nothing to do with relegating them. It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees.

Then WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'

I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')

For a full-time student, there is not much difference financially for full-time (12-18 credits/semester), so this is less than 1 course a semester 'extra'. For Part-time, there is a difference in cost per-course, however, the English majors forced to take my Earth Science classes probably feel the same way, but I damn sure think they should take some science and math!

For UCONN Accounting, why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major, you think it is just a big scam? It isn't to fulfill the requirements for the national board for accrediting a degree. This isn't about denying choice.
I counted 7 "Extra" classes for accounting, and I suspect you can double dip categories and requirements to get this to 4 or 5.

"We were the first accounting program in New England to receive separate national accreditation by AACSB International, the premier accrediting agency for Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral degree programs in business administration and accounting."
http://accounting.business.uconn.edu/#


This is all based on MY experience as a professor. It isn't a perfect system but what you describe is a step backwards, NOT forward.

"It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees."

Who sets the national requirements that do get a debgree in electrical engineering, I need to take history or literature? Those aren't set by the school? I'm guessing those national requirements are set by academics, who want to stay employed and comfortable.

"WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'"

I don't know the answer to that. In my profession, to be a credentialed actuary, you need to pass brutal exams. You don't have to explain what the relationship between Ahab and Moby #^&#^&#^&#^& is a metaphor for. I'm not sure that knowledge would make me a better engineer, either.

"why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major"

because if they did, every student who isn't rich would choose that track, and then they'd need to let go some liberal arts professors.

"I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')"

It was a lot more than 5 when I was there. In any event, that's a semester. At least $10k. Plus 6 months earlier that one could enter the workforce. What's average starting salary for a UCONN mechanical engineer? $50k? So if you graduate a semester earlier, you save $10k by not paying the school, and you earn an additional $25k by starting work 6 months earlier. So the total opportunity cost of those 5 classes is $35k. And that's if there are only 5.

"I damn sure think they should take some science and math!"

So do I.

"It isn't a perfect system"

It's pretty close to perfect for the people who get cushy jobs, making a good salary, lots of time off, with insane benefits (their children typically don't pay tuition at the schools the teach at).

Bryan, if we want to make college more affordable, you have to start with the biggest expenditures. That's not my idea, that's called math. You won't make college cheaper by recycling paper or by using pencils more efficiently or by switching to LED lightbulbs and low-flow toilets in the dorms.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It was a lot more than 5 when I was there.

"I damn sure think they should take some science and math!"

So do I.

Bryan, if we want to make college more affordable, you have to start with the biggest expenditures. That's not my idea, that's called math. You won't make college cheaper by recycling paper or by using pencils more efficiently or by switching to LED lightbulbs and low-flow toilets in the dorms.

So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes, but not the other way around for Accounting or Engineering to take some other 'extra' courses?

Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?

p.s. you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects...

[RIROCKHOUND]

I just went and looked, b/c I was curious.
At RPI, the engineering program requires 6 humanities/social sciences gen eds. I don't think that they are setting this up to be the great liberal bastion of engineering...

"Academics
Our mission is to educate leaders of tomorrow for technology-based careers; to celebrate discovery, and the responsible application of technology; to create knowledge and global prosperity.

Have a solid foundation in mathematics, science, and engineering, and be able to apply these to practical use.
Be able to identify, model, analyze, and solve challenging real world problems.
Have specialized technical knowledge in their chosen field.
Have strong communication skills with emphasis on technical writing and interpersonal communication.
Be able to design innovative products, processes or systems.

Perform effectively on diverse, multidisciplinary teams, both as leader and contributor.
Be informed citizens broadly educated in the humanities and social sciences.
Be prepared to practice engineering in a socially responsible and ethical manner.
Have learned in a creative, stimulating environment that prepares and motivates them to continue to grow and learn."
http://eng.rpi.edu/

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes, but not the other way around for Accounting or Engineering to take some other 'extra' courses?

Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?

p.s. you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects...

"So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes"

I said I think they should take science and math. I'm not in favor of forcing them. That would just be my suggestion.

"Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?"

Traditional. But I was smart enough to know that I was getting scammed. My father was also an electrical engineer, and made it clear that I would learn little in the liberal arts courses that I would ever need. He was absolutely, 100% correct.

"you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects"

I doubt that.

These kids want to make college cheaper. You can't do that, without cutting expenditures. And I have to believe that the #1 discretionary expenditure, by far, is payroll. Therefore, if you ignore payroll, you can't make a huge dent in the cost. You just can't. You solve a problem by addressing the underlying cause, not what you wish the underlying cause to be. I learned that in science classes.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

My father was also an electrical engineer, and made it clear that I would learn little in the liberal arts courses that I would ever need. He was absolutely, 100% correct.

This is revealing.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

This is revealing.

He also taught me that if someone asks me a question about my beliefs that I cannot answer, I should question why I believe what I do.

Just sayin'.

[Jimbo]

I'm sorta getting negative vibes about your opinions of people who pursued Liberal Arts degrees. Why would you think we're any different than someone who pursues and engineering or science degree and has no use for mandatory core classes? I pursued a degree in English, couldn't stand math and had no use for chemistry or physics. But I lucked out. Because of a special deal my freshman year I could waive math and pursue advanced courses in Spanish. Chemistry was a waste of time because it was easier than the high school course I took, and "Rocks for Jocks", the geology course I took had tons of field trips and a hot professor, easy "A's". But if I had my choice I probably would have skipped them, as well as Economics and Psychology, for which I've also had no use since college. But in the end I'm glad I muscled through them. Maybe in some small way I have used them and just don't realize it, because those core classes are intended to make us more well rounded, which may not be an entirely measureable trait.
OK, I'm ready for it, gimme the, "That's just what a Liberal Arts major would say."

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I'm sorta getting negative vibes about your opinions of people who pursued Liberal Arts degrees. Why would you think we're any different than someone who pursues and engineering or science degree and has no use for mandatory core classes? I pursued a degree in English, couldn't stand math and had no use for chemistry or physics. But I lucked out. Because of a special deal my freshman year I could waive math and pursue advanced courses in Spanish. Chemistry was a waste of time because it was easier than the high school course I took, and "Rocks for Jocks", the geology course I took had tons of field trips and a hot professor, easy "A's". But if I had my choice I probably would have skipped them, as well as Economics and Psychology, for which I've also had no use since college. But in the end I'm glad I muscled through them. Maybe in some small way I have used them and just don't realize it, because those core classes are intended to make us more well rounded, which may not be an entirely measurable trait.
OK, I'm ready for it, gimme the, "That's just what a Liberal Arts major would say."

Hi Jimbo;
Remind me what your career was in? How did your background help your work?