No lockdown, no masks, nNo hysteria... NO PROBLEM: Sweden didn't go into a lockdown a

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

and there is a difference from getting killed in an auto vs getting a virus at Walmart that could be prevented

auto deaths can be eliminated. but we don’t do it. we accept tens of thousands of deaths a year on the roads, as a cost of having a quality of life. true or false?
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

auto deaths can be eliminated. but we don’t do it. we accept tens of thousands of deaths a year on the roads, as a cost of having a quality of life. true or false?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

We do, but there are rules in place to try to limit the deaths - something many states did not do. And if a city tried to limit the deaths by imposing restrictions the Repub. govern. all tried to prevent them bc I guess they don't like local control - hypocrites.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

We do, but there are rules in place to try to limit the deaths - something many states did not do. And if a city tried to limit the deaths by imposing restrictions the Repub. govern. all tried to prevent them bc I guess they don't like local control - hypocrites.

you are desperately trying to split hairs. there are rules, but they are very very non invasive. you’re going to compare speed limits, with the spring shutdown? similarly invasive?

Anything at all, to avoid saying “you make a good point.”

speed limits and no school, are equally intrusive according to you.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you are desperately trying to split hairs. there are rules, but they are very very non invasive. you’re going to compare speed limits, with the spring shutdown? similarly invasive?

Anything at all, to avoid saying “you make a good point.”

speed limits and no school, are equally intrusive according to you.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

How about wearing a mask?

And the states that had shutdowns and slowly opened were decreasing until the virus started to come back from the other states. You're the one brought up driving a car (which we use to take my dad to his Drs. appts). my wearing a mask is pretty noninvasive.

[Got Stripers]

Trump continues to believe he knows best medically, so it’s an emergency order to approve without the usual testing for plasma treatments, which most experts agree “may” help some. He is also it appears going to take the same approach on vaccines, so I suggest the entire GOP get in line to get those injections, so they can show us all that rely on science and proven methods to vet a vaccine what the side affects might be.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

How about wearing a mask?

And the states that had shutdowns and slowly opened were decreasing until the virus started to come back from the other states. You're the one brought up driving a car (which we use to take my dad to his Drs. appts). my wearing a mask is pretty noninvasive.

I wear a mask, and can't believe people make a stink about it. Similarly, I can't believe you'd deny the parallel between accepting deaths from car accidents (we don't ban cars) and accepting deaths from disease (no school, closing bars, restaurants, churches, etc)

All large social gatherings, except BLM protests and the VMA awards, are banned it seems. It's absurd that you'd equate our societal shutdown, with having to obey speed limits. As I said, anything to avoid admitting your side might have flawed logic.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I wear a mask, and can't believe people make a stink about it. Similarly, I can't believe you'd deny the parallel between accepting deaths from car accidents (we don't ban cars) and accepting deaths from disease (no school, closing bars, restaurants, churches, etc)

All large social gatherings, except BLM protests and the VMA awards, are banned it seems. It's absurd that you'd equate our societal shutdown, with having to obey speed limits. As I said, anything to avoid admitting your side might have flawed logic.

Are you seriously trying to suggest because we don’t ban cars to prevent less than 40,000 deaths yearly, that we shouldn’t have closed down like we did? That’s an argument you could never win. First those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars, many are due to alcohol, animal strikes or just driver fatigue. We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down. If you are making the case that the old, the medically vulnerable, or the brave first responders should have been sacrificed so the economy didn’t crash, Trump would in the back of his self centered pea brain probably wish that were the track they took.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Are you seriously trying to suggest because we don’t ban cars to prevent less than 40,000 deaths yearly, that we shouldn’t have closed down like we did? That’s an argument you could never win. First those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars, many are due to alcohol, animal strikes or just driver fatigue. We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down. If you are making the case that the old, the medically vulnerable, or the brave first responders should have been sacrificed so the economy didn’t crash, Trump would in the back of his self centered pea brain probably wish that were the track they took.

What I said, is that there are MANY cases where we accept that a meaningful (and fully preventable) number of deaths will occur, in order to maintain a quality of life. But we aren't willing to maintain or normal way of life for covid. I'm not saying the lockdowns were wrong, I don't know, too many "experts" contradicting each other for me to say anything with any confidence. But I can make a valid case that we make many public policy decisions that we know will result in American deaths. The reason we don't do it, is because we don't want to deal with the imposition on our lives.

"those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars"

but the deaths would be avoided if there were no cars. Not all covid deatsh are strictly related to covid either. We know there has been overcounting, and we know some were already very sick and didn't have long to live anyway.

You're not refuting my case.

"We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down."

Yet some countries didn't shut down, and don't have death rates that exceeded ours. Lots of moving pieces, and I don't understand the science enough to conclude the correlation between lockdowns and lives saved. But the existence of countries that didn't lock down and have low death rates, appear to contradict your assumption that death rates decrease with the magnitude of the lockdowns. CT and NY have brutal lockdowns and some of the highest death rates in the nation.

Also, in the worst flu season ever, we never discussed for a second, these kinds of shutdowns.